Nigel,
Bruce Palmer's book about restoring the other brand only has ONE
War Department Registration number for the Indian 741. However, we have
found through some other research that his other numbers were perhaps not
correct. This is no reflection on his research capabilities- probably a
lack of records. I doubt that a motorcycle which was a special construction
designed to a War Department specification was tested with a single machine!
The 741 was originally designed as a 37 cubic inch machine, although later
down-sized to 30.07 cubic inches by request of some ultimate owners-
probably Britain as a means to conform to road tax laws.
Most of the 741's did go to other countries. New Zealand took
almost all of the first 5600 manufactured. Australia took a large chunk of
them somewhere in the middle of the serial number range (that is where mine
came from) and Russia, Brazil, and Britain took a large number of them. The
high 20,000 number range fell mostly into civilian hands. I have some
original source literature which says that these were released for sale to
the public without Office of Price Management controls, which was very
unusual for WWII. Most of the ones found in the US fall into the 25,000 to
32,000 range, and the source I have says 5,000, so there must have been
another release.
Indian was busy during WWII. The US Army purchased large numbers of
the Indian Chief, or 340B, and the Military Sport Scout, or 640B. These
were contracted in 1940, signifigantly before the success of the early
jeeps. The War Department also ordered the design and production of the 841
shaft-drive, which was quite an undertaking for the companies, although they
only bought 1000 according to the contract, and probably took delivery of
less. The French Army ordered a large number of 340's with side cars, and
these are at the bottom of the ocean on board the SS Hanseatic Star. In
1944, Australia bought large numbers of the 344 Chief (same chief, minor
differences). Indian in WWII even designed a toboggan to compete with the
T28 Weasel for First Special Service Force use. Late in WWII, they were
also allowed to make civilian Chief's for sale to essential use entities,
and there are plenty of these around. Indian all told probably built 55,000
motorcycles during WWII, including all military contracts and essential use
bikes.
I think their ultimate sale in 1946 to Consolidated Diesel and
Electric, making them a publicly held company, as well as their poor R&D of
the 1949 Scouts really set them back more than anything. They were in
financial trouble in 1938, with the second depression, and had put large
amounts of money into their 1937 line of motorcycles, so I don't really
think that the War Department contracts hurt them- they sold almost all of
their motorcycles which came back to them from contracts, including a large
number of the 841's. Without going into it here, Indian had a long history
of financial trouble, labor trouble, and questionable management practices.
Their owner during WWII, E. Paul DuPont, of DuPont Motor Car fame, knew how
to run a small business, had a very strong design background, and worked
like a dog to promote his products. I am told by his grandson that his
favorite bike was the 841- he rode it all the time. I really think Indian
was ultimately stricken by the country's fascination (and new found
prosperity to afford) the automobile. In 1946, a new Indian Chief cost
$565.00. You could buy an almost new 1938 or 1939- little used during the
war years- auto for less than that, and fit your new wife and baby in it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nigel Hay <nigel@milweb.net>
To: Military Vehicles Mailing List <mil-veh@mil-veh.org>; John K. Seidts
<john@astory.com>; MVlist@yahoogroups.com <MVlist@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, March 26, 2001 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [MV] Indian M/C restoration
>Am I correct in thinking that the US Army actually had less than 100 Indian
>741's, all the rest going to other allied forces, especially Canada and
>Britain? In which case the early examples would have been delivered in
earth
>brown paint. Is it an urban legen that Indian's demise was failing to see
>the potential end of war production and produced vast amounts of spare
parts
>which were never ordered by the War Dept or the allies? Interested to hear
>your comments folks. Regards, NIGE
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John K. Seidts" <john@astory.com>
>To: "Military Vehicles Mailing List" <mil-veh@mil-veh.org>
>Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 6:48 PM
>Subject: [MV] Indian M/C restoration
>
>
>> Some had asked, and I thought I'd post some of the recent work finished
on
>> my 1942 Indian 741 Motorcycle Restoration.
>>
>> I had the whole frame and sheet metal package (less gas and oil tanks)
>> sandblasted, painted in DP rusty red primer, and then painted I painted
it
>> with Aervoe 34087 OD. To me, the Aervoe looks too light for the original
>> paint items I have had, but it is the only stuff out there, so I used it.
>>
>> The front fork is braced with forgings on top and bottom, which are
>> connected to it by four forged stretchers or links. The two forgings are
>> lined with bronze sleeves and connected to the stretchers by long fork
>> bolts. The bronze was egg shaped, worn very thin, and the bolt was
chewed
>> up as to be unuseable. So I had two new lower fork bolts made, gouged
out
>> the bronze with thin chisels, reamed the inside, and fit in four new
>> bushings. This made the front end ready for assembly to the frame center
>> section.
>>
>> The last thing to get attached to the fork during assembly is the handle
>> bars with controls. There are five separate controls on the handle bars-
>> front brake, spark advance, throttle, horn button, and dimmer switch. I
>> purchased a used dimmer switch on ebay (for half what an original goes
>for),
>> but still haven't gotten the horn button. I have all the rest, so I got
>> ready to repair the bends on the end of the bars. Boy was this fun. The
>> ends of the bars are slotted for the cable barrel to slide through,
>looking
>> very much like a split rivet, and are susceptible to being mangled on a
>> bike, stepped on, or abused when you kick over your piece of &h(^***
>project
>> (long before I got it). Mine looked like someone had taken out all of
>their
>> woes on it. It took almost three hours of gentle hammering, bending, and
>> twisting to get the one side straight. It is absolutely necessary to get
>> the throttle side straight, or you might find yourself in a bike-inspired
>> default acceleration. So I got that done.
>> Further in on the bars, there is a mild steel fitting which you
>> attach the control spirals to. When I put on my spiral grip, it didn't
>seat
>> far enough. So tomorrow, I am un-sweating the fitting and re-brazing it
>to
>> the proper place.
>> Now for the gas tanks. Indians are a bit easier than Harley's to
>> restore from the standpoint that Indian manufactured their tanks by
>forming
>> 20 gauge plated steel and then soldering them together. Harley's are
>> stamped and crimped together. So the Indian's can be de-soldered and put
>> back together. I do lots of welding, but wanted a real tin-smith to do
>the
>> tanks, plus plug the pin-holes on the sides. So this got done about the
>> time I was ready to go looking inside the engine.
>> I have the original serial numbered engine from my bike, in
>pieces,
>> needing re-build. Since this is not a skill I am ready to do due to lack
>of
>> equipment, I purchased an NOS 741 power plant from a guy in Cleveland.
>Bob
>> Brown of Michigan delivered it to me. Indian made thousands of these as
>> spares in WWII, and after the war, sold them surplus. Mine did not come
>in
>> the crate, but still had the shipping mounts on it, so I knew it was NOS.
>> There are many still around. Mine had sat in the basement of a Cleveland
>> Firefighter for almost 30 years, with the spark plugs out. So I decided
>to
>> pull the heads to check for screws or junk, and re-seal the cork float on
>> the carb.
>> The inside was beautiful. The engine had been run a bit at some
>> point, but the thin film of carbon came off with the gentle brush of a
>> finger to reveal beautiful NOS piston and cylinder underneath. I even
was
>> able to use the original gasket to reseal the heads. 50 lbs of torque at
>> the bolts, and it went back together easily.
>> The carb is mounted with three slotted head screws to the simple
>> manifold, and came off easily. I was following the manual instructions
>(TM
>> 10- 1485, dtd 1943), and having trouble getting the ring-shaped float
out.
>> The manual says to remove the ring before removing the float needle seat.
>I
>> tried for almost an hour to jiggle the float loose in a special manner,
>when
>> I began to suspect that the manual was wrong and the needle seat had to
>come
>> out first. I knew Indian did publish a machine-fatal error in the manual
>> for the 841 shaft drive bike, but this manual had gone through three
>> printings before this final edition I had, so I was really wondering that
>I
>> was doing something wrong. I called my friend's father, who has been
>> working on them since 1948, and he asked me why I hadn't taken out the
>float
>> needle seat first....
>> DUHH! Shoulda followed my instincts to that one....
>> I get through all this, and as I am triumphantly removing the
>float
>> from the bowl, I realize that my can of model airplane dope, which is
used
>> to seal the float, is still sitting on the shelf of the hobby store,
which
>I
>> forgot to go to the day before....
>> But anyhow, the bike is ready to start being assembled. I will
be
>> working on the auction, but hope to sneak a few days in getting the frame
>> attached to the motor, then building from that point. It has to happen
in
>> that sequence, due to the weight of the assembled chassis, and how it
>mounts
>> to the frame. So my goal of having it driving around at the Mid Atlantic
>> Air Museum's WWII weekend is looking better.
>> Comments are welcomed, financial support encouraged, and
temporary
>> insanity is not entirely out of the question for the defense...
>>
>> My actual collection includes, but is not limited by my imagination to,
>the
>> following:
>>
>> 1942 BT13A
>> 1942 Indian 741 (in restoration)
>> 1942 Indian 841
>> 1942 WC-53
>> 1942 WC-53 (in restoration)
>> 1942 WC-54
>> 1942 GPW
>> 1942 GTBS
>> 1943 GPW
>> 1944 MB (in restoration)
>> 1944 Merritt & O'Keefe E3 generator
>> 1967 M151A1 (for sale)
>>
>>
>> Time will not dim their deeds....
>>
>>
>> john@astory.com
>> http://www.astory.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
>
>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Wed Apr 04 2001 - 08:10:48 PDT