On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:26:29 -0500, you wrote:
>Yeah, like the cattle you seem to think we all should be. Unless a few
>of those passengers had the ability to SHOOT BACK. That might have
>caused a different outcome- assuming the passengers had more guts than
>you give them credit for.
Now there's a clever idea, an all out fire fight in a pressurized
cabin at 35,000 feet. Punch a few holes in the airframe and maybe take
out the hydraulic system and navigation servos while we're at it.
Why not just issue hand grenades to everyone as they board?
> (UZIs) are NOT easy to conceal, and would be hard to miss
>during boarding inspections.
They don't have to conceal them, remember? You made carrying them on a
plane legal.
>Oh, yeah, and the unarmed, compliant targets had a FAR better survival
>rate yesterday, didn't they? That's the same mindset that allows these
>assholes to BE so effective in the first place.
I doubt someone rigging a car bomb cares whether the victims are armed
or unarmed. It didn't seem to matter in Beirut. It doesn't seem to
matter in Israel. You really don't understand how terrorism works, do
you?
>And since you brought up the subject of Nazis and WWII, might I suggest
>that YOU try fighting back like the French Resistance did- instead of
>passively getting aboard the first cattle-car that the big scary men
>with guns order you into? That's my point, TERP.
Actually, many of my family were in the Danish resistance. Some were
decorated, some were buried.
But this isn't WWII, there are no troops marching over the border in
neatly pressed uniforms and tanks with logos on the side. No cattle
cars, either. They just kill and run.
This is a terrorist war. You don't get to see the enemy, and until you
get that through your thick head you will just be another target for
Bin Laden and his buddies.
You can't wait for them to come marching down the street and then pick
them off. You have to spot them before they act. But that takes more
than a big gun, so I guess that's beyond you.
> If you just give up because the enemy is well-armed or determined, you will lose before the
>fight ever begins. Like the old saying goes, "There's no use in
>running- you'll only die tired." Might as well stand and fight where
>you are, with what you've got.
I never said give up, I said fight smart. Know the enemy, don't just
expect him to act like the last guy did. Do the research and be
prepared. Know where he's going and what he plans to do.
Take a (bad) example from George Armstrong Custer. He assumed it was
just another bunch of indians, until they had his scalp in their
hands.
I own a gun, in fact several, but I'm not counting on them to save me
from a terrorist attack. I know better, I've seen a terrorist attack
first hand.
>Yeah, yeah. And you forgot one other factor. It takes having the BALLS
>to at least try. You might want to look into aquiring a set sometime,
>before criticizing the rest of us for being willing to do the the best
>we can with what we've got.
Yeah, yeah big balls. And no brains to go with them. To win a war you
need to think first, shoot second. And if you fail to do either,
you're just yesterday's lunchmeat.
Like I said, if you think you can outshoot a hundred pounds of Semtex,
you're welcome to try.
I'll be happy to say "he had balls, and there they go - flying over
the treetops"
>And no, because some of those folks with "dark skin" might also be
>fellow law-abiding citizens. I suppose I'd probably figure on just
>shooting the ones who stand up, grab the flight attendant and pull a
>knife on her, and yell "Remain in your seats, or we will kill you all!"
Why is it in all these fantasy scenarios the good guys have the guns
and the bad guys just seem to have forgotten them?
You've got a gun, he has a knife.
If you've made carrying a gun on a plane legal, don't you think the
terrorists are going to think to bring one? I bet they'll ALL bring
one, and big ones too. Or are you going to ask everybody before they
get on the plane " are you a terrorist?
If you are, you'll have to check your gun"
So here's how the REAL scenario works out. You draw, point, and the
terrorist's buddy, (who's got the drop on you because he KNEW this was
a hijacking) drops you like a trophy deer.
>If I get a chance to react, I wouldn't be trying to frighten the stupid
>son-of-a-bitch, or to show off my superior liberal viewpoint in hopes of
>shaming him into compliance. I would try to quietly sneak up behind
>him, and put one round into the side of his head about 3/4 inch above
>the top of his ear or at the base of his skull, thereby removing the
>medulla and the neural pathway for his body to react, in order to turn
>him off like a lightswitch.
Oh, right. The terrorist that has trained for this for months is going
to announce himself, then wait while you sneak up behind him and shoot
him before he detonates the bomb.
Maybe he'll get you coffee while you get ready.
You're in a post office, an old man walks in, boom.
Read the papers, son, that's how it's done.
> And if he detonates his bomb (I guess he
>must have hidden it under his Uzi while going through the security
>checkpoint, but that's another matter),
You did away with the security checkpoints as part of your "freedom to
carry lethal weapons on aircraft" act, remember?
>then at least I will have died
>trying to save myself and everyone else onboard.
Congratulations, Now can we have an option where everybody doesn't
die? Like an intelligence network that allows us to identify this guy
before he got on the plane? Or maybe going over to Afghanistan and
taking out Bin Laden and his training camps once and for all?
Or maybe a war where when we win, we don't let the bad guy and his
army remain intact like desert storm?
You gotta be pro-active. You sit around and wait with a gun in your
pants and your suicide fantasy is gonna come true real quick.
>Hmm. Well, I'd be ALIVE to face the next one.
That doesn't seem to be part of your plan, does it?
>Well, let's see. So far, your example has required us to go from four
>guys, to one with an Uzi, to one with a bomb, to one driving his
>automobile on board (bomb in the glove box), to having to shoot everyone
>with "dark skin", to having to fight with "every Arab and Palestinian in
>the Middle East"... Now, tell us, Mr. TERP- JUST HOW GODDAMN BIG IS
>THIS AIRPLANE SUPPOSED TO BE?!?!?!?!? Last time I looked, Southwest
>was still flying 737s, NOT C-5s.
It's not how big the plane is, it's how many planes THERE ARE, because
if we sit around and wait for them to come after us there's gonna be
terrorists on all of them. And the trains and boats and the shopping
malls, too.
But that doesn't matter to you, because you're dead, remember? And Bin
Laden just sent a hundred more guys over to bomb your wife and your
kids, and your mom . . .
>But that's alright. I think those who are following this argument can
>decide for themselves about the validity of your arguments
It seems pretty simple to me. You're dead, the passengers and crew are
dead, but you feel justified that you did your part.
Oh, and you showed you had balls.
> the facts still boil down
>to this- YOUR position is that we, as individuals, are supposed to put
>our safety and well-being, in fact our very lives, into the hands of the
>all-powerful State, in the hopes that it will find us as useful assets
>and will bother to spare its resources to defend its property. MY
>position is that we are ALL free citizens, and as such have both the
>RIGHT and the DUTY to protect ourselves, without allowing either our
>freedom or our survival to be determined by the whims of others.
Or to put it another way, I want to take action to prevent a disaster,
you want to sit around and wait for it to be dropped on our doorstep.
Rather than take advantage of thousands of trained professionals
you've already paid for, and billions in technology, you just want to
wait and hope that some terrorist is stupid enough to let you know who
he is and give you time to shoot him.
>Yeah. Being willing to fight back was really popular in the 19th
>Century. I guess those 21st Century battles are going to be really
>passive.
Not really, 21st century battles are pro-active and high tech. The
idea is to get them BEFORE they get here and kill your mother.
Novel concept, but it works for me.
>You mean, the guy sitting in his VW parked in the aircraft aisle,
>holding an Uzi in one hand and a bomb detonator in the other? What, now
>he's wearing camoflauge too?!?!? Aw heck, you're gonna make this really
>hard, now aren't you?
Very funny. You're a clever boy, aren't you? Except the bomb detonator
is in his pocket, the UZI is up your ass, and the VW is parked outside
your wife's church packed with explosives and a timer set for when
service lets out.
But you don't have to worry, BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT A GUN!
And burial insurance, I hope.
>Yeah, if you don't fight back and wait for the "professionals" to come
>along and defend you, that's how its pretty much going to happen.
That's right, because in your world the terrorists will all yell "I'm
a terrorist, and I'm here to kill you!", then wait nicely for you to
sneak up behind them and put a bullet in their brain.
> Gee, guess I better hope you don't send in
>the Stormtroopers to smash in my windows and kick in my doors, huh?
Make up your mind, am I a liberal or a fascist?
I guess it doesn't matter, because you're dead, along with the crew
and all the people on your plane.
Too bad you didn't think to go over to Afghanistan and kill him and
his buddies on THEIR soil.
But I guess that would be too 21st century, wouldn't it? Taking the
battle to them takes more than one guy. It takes cooperation, it takes
resources, and yes, intelligence. Never mind that we already have all
of that sitting around doing nothing, Jay wants to do it cowboy style!
In Jay's world we wait around and let the Terrorists pick the time,
the place and the way they're going to kill us and our families, then
we count on his razor sharp wits and lightning fast trigger fingers to
save the day, just like in the John Wayne movies.
YEE-HAWW!!!
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Mon Oct 08 2001 - 10:58:59 PDT