From: Jim Gilmore (jgilmore@ptd.net)
Date: Sun Mar 07 2004 - 20:07:12 PST
Well.........this kind of discussion always happens when I discuss WW II paints...........
I would have replied sooner but I've been busy this week painting several WW II vehicles in the shop........
Dave wrote,
".........That GM plant was very typical of Auto plants of that day. I can only imagine the stuff they pulled during wartime vehicle assembly. I bet some trucks left he plant without paint, only to be painted later, etc. I can't believe that exact color control was a very high priority during wartime............."
Dave.........no offense meant but.........you have no idea of how things were done in production of Military Vehicles in WW II .
Trucks leaving plants without paint?? Absurd............you, as most MV people do, are not aware of the actual facts of QMC and ORD procurement and just guess that things were done in such a haphazard manner.
NO QMC or ORD inspector would accept a vehicle without paint..........just as you would not accept a new car or truck that was not painted........If a vehicle did not have all the items and conditions that the contract specified then it was NOT accepted.......period!
ONLY IF.......a ECO or directive allowed it, would a vehicle be accepted with out items that were called for in the contract. Spare tires were deleted for a while in the jeep contracts as were tops and side curtains later on. BUT.......these were only done when the ORD directed the Mfg. to do so.
If a Mfg. ran out of speedometers for example...the vehicles would not be accepted by the Govt inspector and they would be parked in the Mfg's lot until the missing parts were installed. This is fact...........
Exact color control was a very important item.........because people's lives depended on them. These vehicles weren't painted Olive Drab because the military thought they looked spiffy in this color but because of the camouflage value of this paint.
Doc wrote,
".....
I eventually tossed all my microfiches of the paint formulas. Hie ye to
your local Sherwin Williams authorized dealer or factory store and flash
those numbers to them. They ought to be able to fix you up in a jiffy.........."
Ah........you fall prey to the thought that it's just that easy to come up with the correct WW II color of Lusterless Olive Drab..........
Fix you up in a jiffy???? Sadly.......this is just not so.........try it and you will see why we had to do so much research.........
"........Also the folks from PPG Ditzler have a pretty extensive "antique" vehicle
color library. I was envious of their database when I was in the business............"
Again.........they simply cannot come up with the correct data.........they will tell you that the paint they make now cannot be mixed to this or that old spec........or they just mix up some # 34027 and tell you that that's the right color for WW II.......
"...........Synthetic enamels are air pressure and reduction sensitive. That changes
dry time, which can change color............"
Dry time changes color? Please explain this..............you are telling us that the paint pigments change because of the drying time?
So............if it takes a little longer or shorter for the paint to dry it changes the color pigments? I'll need a bit of hard data to back this up..........this does not relate to the real world........and Lusterless paint. You are referring to Lusterless (flat) paint right? That's what this discussion is about........
"...........My whole thrust of my post was to say that yes, there are standards, but
sometimes the standard might not be as standard as you think............."
Well.........any data that you have on variations of WW II Lusterless paint standards is something that we would like you to share with us.
"..........And sorry, but I have to disagree, the factory standards and procedures do
get violated at the factory. That's what made my job so interesting. And
since you and I were not in the paint booth, all we can see is the finished
product............"
No..........actually, I have the standards used by Ford Motor Company to paint vehicles in Lusterless Olive Drab for the US Government. If you are sure that the standards were violated........please present the data for us to see. Remember, Ford mixed paint in 1,000 lb lots and not in gallon cans. They didn't "run out" of this or that and just use whatever was on hand........EVERYTHING was planned out to the day in production at Ford.
"........Primer Surfacers and Primer Sealers. ........... The nitrocellulose primers
of WW II vintage were quite porous to water incursion..........."
No offense meant Doc, but........you do not know what you are talking about when you state "facts" about WW II paint and paint jobs. The primer for Lusterless Olive Drab paint was a special rust inhibiting primer. This primer, Federal stock No. 52-P-20466, was NOT a Nitrocellulose paint but was a Synthetic Enamel primer. This primer was absolutely required to be used with the Lusterless Olive Drab Synthetic Enamel paint used on WW II vehicles. It was NOT porous but was to seal the surface as the Lusterless Olive Drab paint was porous.
"........ If one were to use a urethane
primer sealer under the paint of choice, expect to see a surface gloss
difference due to the lack of solvent die back into the sealer barrier...........
What? We are applying a OPAQUE paint that is DEAD FLAT and you think it will show gloss due to the primer coat? Are you familiar with what Lusterless (flat) paint is? This paint has the flatting agent right in the paint...........you can paint it right over gloss paint and it will come out dead flat. You can spray it over a mirror and it will come out dead flat.........
The primer, if properly dried, will have no effect on the surface finish of Lusterless paint.........it will come out flat.
I would not dispute you on the subject of gloss auto paints of the last few years but.........you will need to do more homework on the paints used in the WW II period.
".........Now, having noted that, when I finally paint my M37, its going to be a semi
gloss AF Blue, and it will have urethane paint and primers. Will it be an
exact replication of standards? Hell no, and I know it. Will I have to
repaint in two years due to the West Texas sun?.........."
OK.......here's a tip for you ........
Air Force Blue, properly called "Strata Blue", is Ford Motor Company # MX-700457 and the Yellow for the lettering is # MX-708493.
See if your local Ditzler dealer can find the Offset number sheets for this color. Should be a snap right?........
Jim Gilmore
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