Re: [MV] Good for Antoine - oh yes?

Antoine Compin (acompin@earthlink.net)
Sun, 11 Jul 1999 02:00:28 -0700

First of all, my apologies to Arthur and the listees who find
this thread offensive or off-topic. I had suggested to take it
privately, but it does not seem to want to...

Well, if Mr. Shoop and his acolytes think that the Second
Amendment text is sacred and should not be brought in conformity
with the 21st Century needs, then I submit that he be allowed,
as every citizen in the country his full contingent of flints,
muskets, lead balls and black powder. PERIOD!
Of course, mixing black powder with other substances and hiding
it in the basement of Federal buildings would be a no-no...

Read on, this is important! These are YOUR RIGHTS!!

> ...A well regulated Militia, composed of the Gentlemen,
Freeholders, and
> other Freemen, was necessary to protect our ancient laws and
liberty from
> the standing army...and we do each of us, for ourselves
respectively,
> promise and engage to keep a good Fire-Lock in proper Order&
to furnish
> Ourselves as soon as possible with, & always keep by us one
Pound of
> Gunpowder, four pounds of lead, one dozen gun flints, and a
pair of bullet
> molds, with a Cartouch Box, or Powder Horn, and a bag for
balls........

I would be laughing out loud if it wasn't such a serious
issue...

All of Chris DeWitt comments were concise, articula and
historically correct.
Too bad they were interspersed with the usual pitiful arguments
which have been the backbone of the "gun people"
rhetoric...Syllogisms, which are logical arguments based on
flawed premises.
We heard this so-called "reasoning" so many times, I am really
getting ticked off...
Like assimilating guns with cars, knives, hammers... Helloooo!
BIG DIFFERENCE: Guns are designed to KILL... K.I.L.L. (sport
shooting and punching paper are after all, afterthoughts)
Cars are designed to transport, hammers designed to drive nails,
knives to cut food etc...yes, people get hurt in accidents, hit
or cut their fingers etc...
If the gun is as the "gun people" say an INANIMATE object, let
it be just that... a display piece or else, they should change
their line of discourse and call it a weapon.
Also it's about time to start referring to really meaningful and
related statistics, not to irrelevant numbers.

It is a fact that our Constitution has been amended in the
course of our short history, as Chris pointed out... (Women's
right to vote, abolition of slavery and other)
If we cannot change that Second Amendment to bring it in line
with the needs of a modern enlightened society, then we have
better find ways to make sure this infringeable Right to Bear
Arms will never be used for anything other than what was
intended by the Framers. PERIOD.

> >Does owning a gun really make the average household safer?
<Chris asks>
>
> It does in mine......knock my door down some nite or day and
see......

You see what I mean? aggressive self-serving righteousness...
that's all there is here, especially when you also read the
answer to:
> >There is no way they could have foreseen what 20th/21st
century America
> >would become.
>
> Really.....like a cesspool of drug activity...no moral
> absolutes.......prayer in school abandoned.......ect......

Does anybody recognizes the real agenda here? which morals?
which prayers?

And, finally the most objectionable answer to this question from
Chris:
>>: Does your right to immediate gratification supersede the
>>rights of all of us to live in a safer society?

>Gratification?????????How will you be safer......and who will
regulate
>that.......the best gun free society in the world was a
camp......for
>Jews , rounded up as defenseless people......and
exterminated....

Please Mr. Shoop, don't insult our intelligence by answering
beside the point:
and please leave the Jews out of this debate. 6 million of Jews
have paid the ultimate price for the exercise of their freedom
of religion, and many of them continue to fall, still victims of
hatred and intolerance. Using them to support such a lame
argument is an insult to their memory.

If you treat the people you are talking to like ignorant and
uninformed idiots, they'll pay you back in kind.... Now, that
won't help your cause much, will it?

Antoine

----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Shoop <shoop19@idt.net>
To: <Ranger3id@aol.com>
Cc: <mil-veh@skylee.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 10:37 PM
Subject: Re: [MV] Good for Antoine
>
SNIP, SNIP & RE-SNIP Just a few comments here and there:

> Name the only difference between our Republic.....and others
who have
> failed.......
>
> ????? How about the Second Amendment.......try that one on for
size......

Oh that's a very good one, and on what exactly are you basing
this assertion?
>
> >We as individual citizens haven't needed to supply our own
weapons in any
> >major conflict since the revolution.
>
> Want to bet......Obviously you were not around in WWII when
Moms and young
> sons drilled on high school football fields with Dads shotguns
and
> rifles...to defend the west coast..in case the Japs invaded...

Again, besides the point. Good Propaganda and photo
opportunities for civilian morale though, but hardly the whole
nation as implied by Chris.
>
> How about when the NRA collected donated weapons after
Dunkirk...to give to
> the Brits...when they left all their shit in
France......Because the had no
> small arms.........

DO you actually know the number of guns collected? I bet it's
another propaganda coup...
>
> With the exception of those foaming at
> >the mouth fanatics who long for armed confrontation with the
government,
> >there doesn't seem to be any threat looming of it on the
horizon.
>
> Only a fool, fails to learn from the past..........

Yes, like I said in previous posts we are dealing here with
nostalgics of the American Revolution who haven't grown up
since...
>
> Yeah, the
> >Democrats are scum bags. But guess what, so are the
Republicans, and so are
> >99.9% of all politicians. But, they will eventually listen to
the masses. If
> >enough crazy people wig out with guns, losing our right to
ownership could
> >become a reality.

You bet!
>
> Be prepared to fight..........or sit it out like over 90% did
in the big
> fight with the King.......

Nostalgic of the Revolution again?
Of course Heaven forbids considering a democratic fight..I am
sure he means a blood bath! and where did he get that 90% figure
from?
>
> We won't win any points by burying our heads in the sand
> >and stating that all responsibility belongs in the hands of
the nut cases
> >that kill.
>
> Of course it does..You have to be kidding........I am not to
blame....nor
> are you....come on...thats a cop out......thats the basis of
our
> society....to leave alone the majority...and punish the
guilty!
>
> Of course they are responsible for their actions, but gun
> >manufacturers, just like auto manufacturers have to be held
to the highest
> >standards of gun safety. I
>
> Guns are safe...can you imagine...with the number of weapons
in our
> hands......how many people would be killed........with the
anti gun
> logic..and yours.......a gun show would have to be a killing
ground.....

ROFL... as long as any nutcase, enraged, deranged, drunk or
incapacitated person can snuff out a life by the press of a
finger, guns ARE NOT SAFE. Furthermore, our society produces in
great numbers young people who lack the moral fibre to restrain
themselves,and discern right from wrong. Do we want to give
access to guns to these people? I don't think so..
>
> as safe as anything or any other tool.....Give me a break!
>
> f they have the ability to manufacture a safer
>
> >weapon, than it is criminal not to do so, just based on
profits.

Of course it is...like GM saving 10 bucks on their rear-mounted
tanks... Product liability should be (and will be) applicable to
guns also, or it is an admission of their inherent lethality.
>
> You have been listening to Josh Sugarman too long.....

Yawn!!!
>
> We too bear
> >some responsibility, as gun owners to be able to enter the
debate with open
> >minds. Am I suggesting we quit, and give up our rights? No,
of course not.
> >But I personally feel something needs to be done to stem the
tide of gun
> >violence.

Absolutely indispensable: address the core problems, not just
the symptoms.
>
> Draconian punishment..........up front and swift....but we try
to blame
> someone else..."he was abused...the gun did it.......he heard
his mother
> and grandmother argue alot" WWWAAAAAAAAAA!
>
> I caught one of my MP5s sneaking out not long ago..with a
loaded mag.....I
> scolded it and locked him up in the safe...BAD gun..Bad!

You know of course what he is advocating here: not to reduce the
number of gun-related victims, but add to the list the bodies of
the punished...It does not register in his mind that there must
be ways to REDUCE gun-related casualties...but then again, they
are no real will on the "gun people" part to change the status
quo...

> >
> >Yes, we might even end up like our brothers in Europe and
Canada.
>
> But, having
> >been stationed in Europe for 3 1/2 years, and having visited
Canada on a
> >number of occasions, other than their inability to speak
proper English,
> they
> >don't seem like such bad places (plus you have about
one-tenth the chance of
> >being killed in a gun related crime).
>
> All the people killed in gun less countries are dead...so I
doubt you met
> any of them at ask about gun ownership.....I wish you could
> though........Hell...there were 20 million Russians
alone......and of the 6
> million Jews..I bet some of them wished they had been allowed
to own
> guns......

And...what's exactly your point? Does it ever dawns on you that
the majority of people in the world PREFER to resolve their
problems without violence? and hellooo, the 20 Million Russians
in WW2 had plenty of guns, their and ours via lend-lease...
>
> Chris...I feel sorry for you...live free or die....my
friend.......good
> luck. You would have made a great subject of the King!
>
Here, this old nostalgia surfacing again...
>
>
And no, Antoine has absolutely NO intention to pack his bags and
go...

===
To unsubscribe from the mil-veh mailing list, send the single word
UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of a message to <mil-veh-request@skylee.com>.