Please excuse the long delay in getting this response out. Due to a heavy=
work load in the past weeks my time before the computer has been very=
limited. This, coupled with week long problems accessing my *%#$#!! =
internet server, has resulted in the lateness of this post.
Much of the text/data/quotes contained in this posting will be=
used in a upcoming article intended for publication in a national magazine.=
Therefore, I must start with this statement.
Notice: All information, data , charts,=
quotations and copy,
with the exception of comments by Todd Paisley, contained within=
this document are=20
Copyright James T. Gilmore, 1999=20
It's use in any publication without permission is=
expressly forbidden.
OK, that said, let's proceed,
>Todd quotes me;
>>> The W was added to the GP designation to differentiate between the=
Ford
>>> design jeep with Ford motor and the Ford design jeep with Willys motor.
>>> Ford considered the MB to be derived from the Ford design
>>> and blueprints. Which it was !! Yes, Yes, I know that Bantam=
"invented"
>>> the jeep, however the body design of the MB/GPW was pure Ford !
>
>Todd wrote;
>>Pure rubbish. The Ford pilot models and GP were knock-offs and=
refinements
>>of the Bantam pilot model and BRC-60 (of which Ford was given the=
blueprints
>>to by the QMC).
>=20
Hold on here. I was talking about the BODY design, not the=
general layout of the vehicle. You are correct that Van Dykes were given=
out by the QMC. Bantam, Ford and Willys were ALL required to provide the=
QMC with the drawings of their respective pilot vehicles. It was the QMC=
that set the original specifications as to weight, length, height, and=
features that they wanted for the pilot models. Bantam (and Ford & Willys)=
produced their pilot model to the QMC specifications, not the other way=
around. Would we then say that the Bantam is a knock off of the QMC since=
they came up with the idea of a 1/4 ton 4x4 first? It is the QMC=
specifications that determined the basic shape/size/wheel base/cowl height=
of the pilots. However, each manufacturer interpreted these specifications=
in their own manner.
> There is a hell of a lot more to a Jeep than the headlights
>>and windshield. Changing the headlights and windshield are refinements,=
not
>>revolutionary ground breaking work.
I would say that the swing-up headlights (with their grille=
attachment), fold-forward windshield (and it's frame) and even the rear=
seat (GP/MB), were in fact, ground breaking. So much so that the United=
States Patent Office gave Clarence Kramer PATENTS on each one of these=
items. BTW..in the patent drawings for each of these inventions a complete=
jeep is shown, not just the item being patented. Even the first Willys=
Quad (2 WD) was later fitted with the Kramer designed windshield.
Todd;=20
As far as Dale Roeder's statements, he gave many wrong statements: =20
Please reread my original posting. I stated ; "Now Ford, in contrast=
to Willys, never claimed to have "invented" the jeep. They always gave=
credit where credit was due. A good example of this is this quote from an=
interview of Dale Roeder, head engineer of the 1/4 ton recon car project=
(1940/41) "=20
I then quoted Mr. Roeder " So the jeep was in reality was a sort of a=
hybrid, a composite of all these other designs. The jeep that was finally=
produced was the concept of the Bantam Company...... "
The reason I quoted Mr. Roeder was not to "prove" my claim that the MB=
body was derived from Ford design. It was to show that, here was the head=
engineer of the Ford jeep development team being interviewed, and the FIRST=
thing he does is credit the not only the Bantam Company for the concept,=
but that it was a composite of the other designs !! Compare his frankness=
of the jeep origin with the claims of Willys that "It was the great Willys=
civilian engineering staff fresh from their triumphs in the Willys-Americar=
and the Go-Devil engine, who collaborated with the Quartermaster Corps of=
the U.S.Army to create and perfect the jubilant jeep". Other ads stated=
things such as (Willys) "gave birth to the amazing jeep of today." =
"create" and "gave birth" was really stretching the truth, so much so that=
the Federal Trade Commission forced them to stop these misleading ads.
As for the rest of Roeder's quote, if I had any idea that it would cause=
such consternation I would have left it out! However, it is my policy,=
whenever possible, to include the entire quote. Quotes can change meaning=
entirely if parts of them are left out. (example: the statement "I like the=
Nazi S.S uniform, but hate what they stand for" can be cut to "I like the=
Nazi S.S........". Not exactly what the=20
the original quotation meant but it IS the quote!!)
Lets look at the rest of Mr. Roeder's quote; =20
"It had a Willys designed engine and it had a Ford body, frame,=
generator, starter, shock absorbers -- but all these components were=
interchangeable." =20
Dale Roeder did not say that these things were designed by Ford. He=
was, in this interview, speaking about the Ford built jeep (GPW) He is=
correct that the body, frame, generator,starter etc. were Ford, that is,=
produced by Ford (or for Ford by their subcontractors). =20
I should note here that I did not interview Mr. Roeder and Mr.=
Sheldrick, these were done in the late 1950s for a Ford historical=
document. The transcripts of the interviews are in the Ford Archives. It=
was Clarence Kramer that I interviewed and corresponded with before his=
death on August, 20 1994.
>>
>>>it had a Ford body
>>Todd;
>>As far as the body is concerned, the MB/GPW was designed by=
Willys-Overland.
>>Any other statement is pure fiction. There exist MB blueprints dating=
back
>>to July 1941. This is MANY MANY months before Ford was asked to produce=
the
>>GPW. There also are NO body parts on the GP that are interchangeable with
>>the MB body. Did Willys use design ideas that originated from Ford when
>>they designed the MB/GPW body? You bet... (snip) ...
>
> Is this not exactly what I was saying? Please read my original=
posting again. I did not state that the MB was an EXACT, part for part,=
duplicate of the Ford. I stated " Ford considered the MB to be DERIVED=
from the Ford design and blueprints. Which it was".( I will retract the=
word "pure" from my statement that the body was "pure" Ford as the body=
tubs were basically all the same as the Bantam) The key word is "derived"=
and I was talking at the time only about the design of the body. (ie)=
Where did the features (designs) that make up the MB body came from.=
Which pilot model (Willys Quad, Budd bodied Ford, Kramer bodied Pygmy or=
Bantam) were the first to use them. This will show were the "design"=
features originated from. It would be incorrect to say for example, that=
the grab handles on the MB were a Bantam design, because the Bantam pilot=
did not have them! The Willys, Budd and Ford bodies first used them.
>Todd;
>But to call it a Ford design is totally misleading...(snip)
>
Again, let me quote my original post " To see where the design=
originated from you must compare the first four pilot models to the final=
product"
OK, lets look where the design features of the MB body first came from.=
We will compare a first month MB to each company's pilot model.
design MB Pygmy Quad =
Budd Bantam
Grille shape flat flat rounded=
rounded rounded
construction barstock barstock tube =
tube tube
headlights swing up swing up fixed =
fixed fixed
mounting under hood under hood fender =
fender fender
hood flat, flat, =
rounded, rounded, rounded,
rectangular rectangular tapered =
tapered tapered
cowl flat flat =
rounded rounded rounded
gearshift on floor on floor steering=
column floor floor
windshield fold-foward fold-foward hinged =
hinged hinged
construction tubular tubular =20
top bow double bow double bow single bow =
single bow single bow
fenders flat-open flat-open =
flat-enclosed rounded rounded
rear fender-
tool boxes yes yes ?? =
yes ??
grab handles 2 per side 2 per side 2 per side =
2 per side none
hood latch "T" spring hook "T" spring hook ?? =
palmscrew palmscrew?
windshield latch "T" spring hook "T" spring hook wing nut =
wing nut wing nut
blackout lights grille mount grille mount fender =
fender fender
Now if we look at the chart above we see that the MB body has a flat=
rectangular hood, flat bar stock grille, swing-up head lamps and blackout=
lamps behind the grille, flat open fenders, tubular fold-forward=
windshield, double-bow top bow, and flat cowl. Now, which one of the pilot=
model bodies has all these features?
The Ford Pygmy. Even something as simple as the "T" spring hooks for=
the hood and windshield were first used on the Ford pilots. The features=
of the Kramer designed Pygmy body were carried over to the final product,=
the MB. (I will agree here that the shape of the top of the MB flat fender=
is like the Quad, that is two piece (although with sides) , but the open=
style (flat with no sides) flat fender was first used on the Pygmy). =20
I ask the question, besides the two piece shape of the front fenders, what=
part of the MB body design originates from the Willys Quad?
(It is easier to see where the body design came from if the photos of=
the four pilots and MB are right in front of you to compare. Do any of the=
jeep web sites have these photos on their site?)
I am not shorting Bantam here. We are talking about the body design of=
the pilots compared to the final product. I would credit them with the=
body tub and door cutaways. Had it not been for Clare Kramer the MB body=
would have looked like the Bantam BRC 60 or the Quad.
It wasn't just the Ford people that thought the design came from their=
work.
At this point of the discussion I will call an expert witness who=
will support my claim.
"Francis H. Fenn, President, American Bantam Car Company"
This data is from the Ford Archives and is a transcript entitled "Testimony=
taken of hearing before the Truman Committee investigating National=
Defense"
(Room 318 Senate Office Bldg., Washington D.C.) August 6, 1941
"FIRST WITNESS: Francis H Fenn, President, American Bantam Car=
Corp.
(A Pennsylvania Corporation located in=
Butler, Pa.)
witness was asked to give a history of the development of the "jeep" car.
His statement was as follows."
I will leave out the testimony that follows to save space ( 3 pages)=
in this already volumous posting and cut to the following quotation from=
the transcript of Mr. Fenn's testimony;
QUOTE the testimony transcript of Mr. Fenn; " Specifications were=
written and bids were let out to take "all or none" on one specification. I=
would say that the specifications involved certain changes that the Army=
desired. (in answer to a question the witness said that he thought that the=
manufacturer who could have built the 16,000 units with the least change in=
design from those already built was Ford). They involved extensive front=
end metal changes, lengthening the body an inch and a few other items which=
were hard on us" UNQUOTE the transcript. Note that the sentence contained=
in ( ..) is in the original transcript and not from me.
=20
Even the President of the Bantam Car Cop., developers of the concept, in=
sworn testimony before a U.S. Senate Committee, thought the Ford to be the=
closest to the final specifications. (it was these specifications that the=
MB was built to.)
My quote,
>>> Oh by the way, did I mention that the pressed steel slotted grille
>>> that is the trademark of the Jeep division of D/C Corp. was designed by
>>> Clarence Kramer? Yep, another Ford design claimed by the heirs of=
Willys!
>>Todd's quote,
>>This is another myth that seem to perpetuate. There are Willys-Overland
>>drawings (A-2981) which shows the stamped grille being shown as early as
>>September 1941, one month before the Ford contract.=20
This is very interesting ! Does this document show the exact GPW/MB=
pressed grille? I would love to see or have a copy of this document. In=
fact, I would think that Daimler/Chrysler would give a kings ransom for=
anything that could PROVE they (Willys Overland) designed the WW II jeep's=
pressed steel grille! I do not say this in a "smart ass" way but=
genuinely mean it. You see, D/C Corp. has a problem. They just lost a=
landmark case concerning the Jeep grille. They (Chrysler, now=
Daimler/Chrysler Corp.) had for some time, run around the country=
threatening major lawsuits against anyone using "their" grille trademark=
for any purpose. I even know of a Military jeep dealer (he used the jeep=
grille on his business cards) who was threatened with a lawsuit! He now=
uses a Bantam BRC 40 grille on his cards. Several years ago I was=
contacted by Ted Vanzant who produces jeep grille overlays and was being=
sued by Chrysler Corp. Ted had heard that I had data on the design of the=
pressed steel grille and that I had interviewed the designer (Kramer). I=
sent him data and had him contact Mr.Kramer. I just contacted Ted to see=
how he made out (one of the reasons for the delay in sending this post) and=
he replied;
"Jim, I want you to know that I really appreciated all the help I received=
from everyone. Chrysler never admitted anything -- They used words such as=
"it is not relevant who created the grille". A lot of the info never got in=
at the actual trial but was put in during various motions. I was able to=
get most of Chrysler's case dismissed on Summary Judgment. The only issue=
left for trial was wether or not my grille overlay would dilute their=
trademark's effectiveness". =20
Ted has a great web site that tells the story of his struggle with D/C=
Corp. that you will enjoy at http://www.wee1.com/goliath.htm Check it=
out and be sure to click on the origin of the jeep grille for more of this=
story.
I refer to this court case as further documentation that Willys did not=
design the WW II jeep pressed steel grille. If the grille was first=
designed by Willys then why would Chrysler not be able to prove this in=
court? If the drawing Todd refers to (A-2981, is this a drawing number=
or a part number? the MA grille # is A-2207, MB slat # is A-2858 and MB=
pressed grille # is A-3615) has a date of September 1941, it brings up some=
interesting questions such as; If Willys designed the pressed steel grille=
by 9/41, why did they not use it in production which started 11/41? Why=
did they wait until 3/42 (after nearly 26,000 MB jeeps were built) to use=
the pressed grille on the MB? Why use the more costly and time consuming=
built up bar stock (slat) grille if they had the design for the simpler and=
cheaper grille? =20
In my interview with Clarence Kramer he stated that the first=
(pressed) grille was hand made on a wood form at the Ford Engineering lab.=
He later wrote me on 7/21/93 ;
=20
"Just a note to fill you in on the brush guard construction used on the Ford=
GP(W) 1/4 ton truck.
The hammer form I referred to in our meeting was used to determine=
how long a flange we could get in the forming the sheet steel in the upper=
and lower portion of the opening between the vertical guard struts. It=
proved to be adequate.
The detail drawing of the brush guard panel was then completed. I=
then presented a blueprint of the guard panel to Mr. Robert Brown, at=
Holabird, and he asked if it would be strong enough. I assured him that it=
would be. He then OK'd it's use.
Mr. Dale Roeder was present in our meeting."
Mr. Kramer then added a PS. ;
"Ford Motor Company needed approval on the use of a one piece stamping=
replacement from the strip steel design brush guard that was approved as=
part of the prototype vehicle approved by the Army. This is a normal=
requirement on all Government contracts of this type."
Mr. Kramer was correct that any deviation from the contract=
specifications required approval from the QMC (and later the Ord. Dept)=
before it could be used. These changes were authorized by the Chief of=
Ordnance as Engineering Change Orders (E.C.O.). Even something as simple=
as stencilling "no spare tire" on the jeep shipping crates required one of=
these (E.C.O. 8930, 9/30/44). Maybe someone will come up with the E.C.O.=
on the pressed steel grille and we will find out more about it's origin. =
=20
Todd;
Even when Willys did
>>adopt the stamped grille, it was initially made by a company called=
American
>>Forging and Socket.
The "fact" that WF&F produced the pressed steel grille has been written=
in several books with some going as far as saying that they (WF&F) designed=
it! I have found only ONE (1) reference to WF&F in all of the=
thousands of pages of documents that I have reviewed in the Ford Archives. =
In the "infamous" La Croix file is the statement " Among other Company=
developments was a pressed-steel brush guard-lighter, lower in cost,=
stronger and requiring less critical tools than the previous welded bar=
design. It was designed by Ford in co-operation with the American Forge and=
Socket Company, Pontiac, Michigan." =20
I must stop here and state that the La Croix file is the single most=
source for INCORRECT data of Ford jeeps. La Croix was assigned to write a=
history of Ford wartime production. When you first go to the Ford Archives=
at the Henry Ford Museum and tell them you are researching Ford jeeps they=
put three boxes of data labeled "jeep" before you. In these boxes are many=
great photos and a lot of data.....MOST OF IT WRONG. This is La Croix's=
rough drafts of his history. They were later corrected and reprinted=
several times (at least four ) until he got most of it correct. This is=
where all the incorrect production figures, charts, etc. come from. The=
researcher, after going through these boxes, comes away with what he=
considers as THE data on Ford jeeps. Hey, it came from the "official" Ford=
records right? ALL data from the La Criox file should be confirmed with=
"hard" data before being used. =20
In later rewrites of the history the reference to WF&F is not included.=
According to all other Ford data, the GPW grille (and body assembly) was=
produced by the Lincoln Plant starting 12/17/41 until 9/16/43. The AF&F=
produced grille may have been used from the start or with the later=
"composite" American Central built GPW/MB bodies used by Ford until the end=
of production. More "hard" data is needed to determine if the grille was=
produced by Ford or a subcontractor.=20
As to the grille design, it is a fact that;
Ford used the pressed steel grille on ALL GPWs , production=
starting January 13, 1942.
Willys used the GP type slat grille on the MB until March 1942 , Sn.=
125,808 (TM-10-1186).
Todd;
Unless Clarence can prove he designed the stamped
>>grille (for a vehicle his company wasn't even under contract to produce)
>>prior to September 1941, I file this under "urban legends".
The first contracts for the GPW were awarded to Ford Oct. 4, 1942. The=
Ford engineering staff knew that they would be getting this contract well=
before this date. Contract negotiations had been ongoing for some time=
before this. This was because the QMC/ORD wanted Ford to also produce the=
1/4 ton because of Willys dismal production performance in producing the=
MA.
There is phographic proof of the pressed steel grille's=
origin.
The earliest photographs I have found of a GPW with the pressed steel grille=
were taken outside the Ford Engineering Lab on 12/19/41 (FMC photo #76477).=
=20
I also have photographs of the Ford pressed steel grille being test=
fitted by the Ford Engineering Lab to MB USA # 2031710, Sn# 1003?? (DOD=
11-1?-41) dated 11/21/41. This MB was supplied by the Government to the=
Ford Engineering Labs for engineering work and the photos show it outside=
the Ford Engineering Building. Can anyone come up with a photo of a=
Willys (or WF&F) made pressed steel grille before this date? Can anyone=
come up with a reason why, if Willys first designed the "famous" jeep=
grille, they waited for 6 months to use it? =20
=20
Now, before closing this post I would like to again refer to the=
original subject, what GPW stands for. I have noticed that some people are=
still unconvinced as to the meaning of the "W". Let me again=20
state; the "W" was added by Ford to indicate the unit had the Willys=
designed motor. It was Ford that came up with the designation of GP and GPW=
so their explanation of it should be used as the correct meaning, not=
someone else's guess or what has been printed in all the books. I will add=
the following data from the Ford Archives to put the final word to this. =
In a Ford document titled "Letter identification and a brief description of=
same." (Ford Archives) it states "GPW - Ford-built Jeep (later model than=
the GP) "W" identifies unit as powered by the the Willys duplicated engine=
(60 horsepower) ".=20
Lest anyone misunderstand, "Willys duplicated engine" means Ford built=
duplicate of the 60 hp Willys motor. This meaning of the "W" even shows up=
in the monthly sales report for the Alexandria branch 1/42 (Govt. Sales)=
which notes under 4 cyl. sales " 1/4 ton reconnaissance car with Willys=
motor"
Well, this posting is now waay to long and has probably put most everybody=
to sleep, so I'll end it now.
Perhaps sometime I'll start a real firestorm and let you all know some=
interesting things I found in a obscure Quartermaster file in the National=
Archives titled "Lusterless Olive Drab"! =20
=20
Jim Gilmore MVPA # 5843
Member Ist Michigan AOD Chapter MVPA
Great Lakes Chapter MVPA
Ohio Motor Pool Chapter MVPA
Red Ball Chapter MVPA
Ontario Military Vehicle Association
Midwest Military Vehicle Assocation
-------------------------------------------------------------------
2656 Wiethoff, Inkster, Mi. 48141
313-561-8826 voice 313-730-1652 fax
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