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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Gilmore" <jgilmore@oeonline.com>
To: "Military Vehicles List" <mil-veh@uller.skylee.com>
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: [MV] Ferret fluid and Catch 22
>
> >.......I see, so all those hydraulic transmissions and torque converters
> >on this
> >(US) side of the pond just run on foam then? Shell only makes hydraulic
oil
> >with anti foam additives for the UK market? Oh come on Jim, just because
one
> >uses a specific ingredient in it's additive package doesn't mean it is
the
> >ONLY compatible fluid.
>
> I don't think I said we wanted a "compatible fluid". I
referred
> to a M.O.D. approved substitute for OM-13. I have the M.O.D. data sheets
> on fluids for British military vehicles which list approved substitutes
for
> the military ones. They are rather specific as to what is a proper
civilian
> fluid to use in place of OM-13 and the Shell product is one of a very few
> that will meet all the specs. This is why we went to Shell to obtain what
> we wanted.
>
Hang on a moment, we're getting a bit too precious I think.
> > As long as the lubricant is the proper viscosity, has
> >an additive package that is compatible with the intended use and
MATERIALS, I
> >don't see the particular problem. Just because it doesn't have "steric
acid"
> >doesn't mean it doesn't have an adequate anti foaming package or isn't
> >compatible with the seals.
>
The important bit for the seals is MINERAL base, its ATF and brake fluid
that turn them into chewing gum. On this basis the particular LHM mineral
fluid specific to hydraulically suspended Citroens (much like a Saracen
system where one pump does all), Some RRs and Jaguars would do a turn.
> The viscosity is but one part of the total makeup of the fluid. Be
> assured, some fluids that have the same viscosity WILL damage the
> seals. None of the wheel stations on my Saladin leak and I am committed
to
> keeping them that way. Remember, the Stearic acid is there for a reason
> (anti-rust says Richard, and I will defer to his knowledge) , any fluid
> that would be a direct replacement will have it in it's composition or
it's
> not a direct replacement. 30 wt. oil and 30wt detergent oil are both 30
> wt oil but they are not interchangeable in some applications. A similar
> example would be automatic transmission fluid. ATF comes in many brands
and
> types and all are ATF. However, use the wrong one in your transmission and
> while it may work for a while, you will be spending $$$ to make it work
> right later. I'd rather not have those problems later on in my favorite
> vehicle.
>
Lets not muddle 90EP with the hydraulic stuff.
>
> > >In fact, use of some of these fluids they stated would replace OM-13
would
> >have destroyed the >seals in short order. Now if the fluid one uses in a
> >Ferret for the coupling is not correct it won't >move off........With a
> >Saladin we could lose braking and control......
> >
> >I curious just what kind of fluid you have been told to put in those
things.
>
> I will have Ed give us the info on some of the things we have been
> told will work.....by people who profess knowledge in these areas.
>
I have just this moment spoken to James Halligan at Shell UK tech.
Stearic acid is a lubricosity improver or wetting agent but the nature and
task of hydraulic oils means they all have something to do this. I still
think, as Shell do, the few HP delivered into the Saracen/Saladin hydraulic
system is
insignificant to a tracked excavator thrashing tens of gallons of ISO 32 a
minute around at 4000psi, all day too.
All ISO hydraulic oils have anti-corrosion, anti-wear, anti-foam,
anti-breakdown, anti everything undesireable in them Shell tell me or they
couldn't do the job at all.
The direct, covered in expensive release bumf, exactly the same spec as OM
13, batch tested, fully released hydraulic glug that you're so keen to use
and take a second mortgage on (be warned) is washing about in the States by
the tanker load.
Its called "Aeroshell Fluid No. 1" or US translated, "Aeroshell Fluid #1".
It is exactly the same as Shell Tellus T 15. Exactly the same Shell tell
me, well hugely cheaper and not covered with Mil/aero expensive QA paperwork
which ultimately has but one practical use and its not very good at that.
The temp range on OM 13/ISO 15 is large, the viscosity step size of ISO
grades is tiny, ISO 32 just looks like ISO 15 at a lower temperature and
Shell agree for temperate use no effect will be noticeable, they say torque
converters are extremely tolerant of grade changes, the pump is more likely
to notice it and Stearic acid is largely a belt and braces frill, last jot,
just in case, gear pump lubricator.
> >
> >My Stalwart's hydraulic and other systems (call for OM-13) seem very
happy
> >with Shell Tellus T 15 available here in SW Washington State.
>
> It's your vehicle and you can, of course, use anything you want.
>
Quite so, and it happens that to all intents and purposes T 15 is OM 13
without the bedtime reading, better yet Washington State has some.
> >I spoke with a
> >very knowledgeable rep and we discussed seal compatibility problems and
it
> >seems that the additive package in the above oil is compatible with the
seals
> >used in conjunction with OM-13 spec..
>
> What composition are the seals in your Stalwart? We have been
> told that there are updated seal kits for these vehicles that allow the
use
> of fluids that have a different base than OM-13. I would like very much
> to discuss this with the rep. you spoke with if you would be so kind as
to
> give us his phone number.
>
Mineral is the key. Oil, Mineral, type 13.
>
> >Oh well, you guys can use the fork oil if you want but I'm gonna keep
> >purchasing mine cheaply by the 5 gallon pail . . . I'd get the 55 gallon
drum
> >but hydraulic fluid is about the only fluid my Stalwart doesn't leak,
yet.
>
Tellus T 15, cool.
> Ah yes, that's the key word.....Yet. I would rather use a fluid
> that I had complete confidence in than something that is used because it's
> available and/or cheap. Kind of like, pay more now so you don't pay even
> more later. I learned this lesson early on with the brake system in my
> first car (MG) when I used cheap brake fluid instead of the proper Girling
one.
>
You are making an understandable but huge mistake and an inappropriate
association.
The very early cars had a severe rivalry between the brake systems
providers, Lockheed and Girling. To maximise profits and corner their
market they chose entirely different seal material and so you were locked-in
to using their specific fluid in their systems. All us 1960's first car
drivers know all about this as we've been there, fortunately all the later
mundane stuff now takes DOT something or other after the brake wars
subsided.
I have to mention the stupidity though of making DOT 5 silicon then DOT 5.1
as "ordinary" stuff. All the cans on shelves here have added sticker
warnings that 5.1 is NOT silicon.
This also happened with radio valves (sorry, toobs), the British Mazda Valve
company saw the popularity of the international octal base and promptly made
all theirs, very commercially saleable types too, for their own Mazda base
known as the MO valve base, incidentally. They look identical but one wont
fit the other. Of course.
All a bit like Microsoft really but on a much smaller scale.
>
> >BTW Richard, that was a generous offer on shipping oil but if you are
going
> >to be shipping drums of something, at least make it something we can't
easily
> >get here like several 1/2 barrels of Strongbow or perhaps some Murphy's!
>
> Around here Murphy's is quite easy to find.........if only OM-13
were!
>
The problem with these liquids is that frightfully nice Laurie White has
something to say about it and requires the equivalent of a F6 and lots of
money.
If you do want a reference sample for analysis I have several stencilled,
OD, sealed 1L tins of actual OM 13, you will see plenty no doubt at Beltring
too.
If you do go the Aeroshell Fluid #1 (I think this is dyed red as a leak
indicator) route do tell us what it costs. I'll make sure I'm sitting down.
Try your local airfield too as I expect they're glugging it in everything
from Cessna brakes to 747 elevators, might happily sell a gallon or two.
Richard
Southampton - England
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Thu Jun 01 2000 - 22:37:12 PDT