I sure am glad that I have a Delete button.
Ed
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Terp <dterp@tallcity.com>
To: Military Vehicles Mailing List <mil-veh@mil-veh.org>
Date: Thursday, September 13, 2001 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [MV] Terrorist Attack
>On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:26:29 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Yeah, like the cattle you seem to think we all should be. Unless a few
>>of those passengers had the ability to SHOOT BACK. That might have
>>caused a different outcome- assuming the passengers had more guts than
>>you give them credit for.
>
>Now there's a clever idea, an all out fire fight in a pressurized
>cabin at 35,000 feet. Punch a few holes in the airframe and maybe take
>out the hydraulic system and navigation servos while we're at it.
>
>Why not just issue hand grenades to everyone as they board?
>
>> (UZIs) are NOT easy to conceal, and would be hard to miss
>>during boarding inspections.
>
>They don't have to conceal them, remember? You made carrying them on a
>plane legal.
>
>>Oh, yeah, and the unarmed, compliant targets had a FAR better survival
>>rate yesterday, didn't they? That's the same mindset that allows these
>>assholes to BE so effective in the first place.
>
>I doubt someone rigging a car bomb cares whether the victims are armed
>or unarmed. It didn't seem to matter in Beirut. It doesn't seem to
>matter in Israel. You really don't understand how terrorism works, do
>you?
>
>>And since you brought up the subject of Nazis and WWII, might I suggest
>>that YOU try fighting back like the French Resistance did- instead of
>>passively getting aboard the first cattle-car that the big scary men
>>with guns order you into? That's my point, TERP.
>
>Actually, many of my family were in the Danish resistance. Some were
>decorated, some were buried.
>
>But this isn't WWII, there are no troops marching over the border in
>neatly pressed uniforms and tanks with logos on the side. No cattle
>cars, either. They just kill and run.
>
>This is a terrorist war. You don't get to see the enemy, and until you
>get that through your thick head you will just be another target for
>Bin Laden and his buddies.
>
>You can't wait for them to come marching down the street and then pick
>them off. You have to spot them before they act. But that takes more
>than a big gun, so I guess that's beyond you.
>
>> If you just give up because the enemy is well-armed or determined, you
will lose before the
>>fight ever begins. Like the old saying goes, "There's no use in
>>running- you'll only die tired." Might as well stand and fight where
>>you are, with what you've got.
>
>I never said give up, I said fight smart. Know the enemy, don't just
>expect him to act like the last guy did. Do the research and be
>prepared. Know where he's going and what he plans to do.
>
>Take a (bad) example from George Armstrong Custer. He assumed it was
>just another bunch of indians, until they had his scalp in their
>hands.
>
>I own a gun, in fact several, but I'm not counting on them to save me
>from a terrorist attack. I know better, I've seen a terrorist attack
>first hand.
>
>>Yeah, yeah. And you forgot one other factor. It takes having the BALLS
>>to at least try. You might want to look into aquiring a set sometime,
>>before criticizing the rest of us for being willing to do the the best
>>we can with what we've got.
>
>Yeah, yeah big balls. And no brains to go with them. To win a war you
>need to think first, shoot second. And if you fail to do either,
>you're just yesterday's lunchmeat.
>
>Like I said, if you think you can outshoot a hundred pounds of Semtex,
>you're welcome to try.
>
> I'll be happy to say "he had balls, and there they go - flying over
>the treetops"
>
>>And no, because some of those folks with "dark skin" might also be
>>fellow law-abiding citizens. I suppose I'd probably figure on just
>>shooting the ones who stand up, grab the flight attendant and pull a
>>knife on her, and yell "Remain in your seats, or we will kill you all!"
>
>Why is it in all these fantasy scenarios the good guys have the guns
>and the bad guys just seem to have forgotten them?
>
>You've got a gun, he has a knife.
>
>If you've made carrying a gun on a plane legal, don't you think the
>terrorists are going to think to bring one? I bet they'll ALL bring
>one, and big ones too. Or are you going to ask everybody before they
>get on the plane " are you a terrorist?
>If you are, you'll have to check your gun"
>
>So here's how the REAL scenario works out. You draw, point, and the
>terrorist's buddy, (who's got the drop on you because he KNEW this was
>a hijacking) drops you like a trophy deer.
>
>>If I get a chance to react, I wouldn't be trying to frighten the stupid
>>son-of-a-bitch, or to show off my superior liberal viewpoint in hopes of
>>shaming him into compliance. I would try to quietly sneak up behind
>>him, and put one round into the side of his head about 3/4 inch above
>>the top of his ear or at the base of his skull, thereby removing the
>>medulla and the neural pathway for his body to react, in order to turn
>>him off like a lightswitch.
>
>Oh, right. The terrorist that has trained for this for months is going
>to announce himself, then wait while you sneak up behind him and shoot
>him before he detonates the bomb.
>
>Maybe he'll get you coffee while you get ready.
>
>You're in a post office, an old man walks in, boom.
>Read the papers, son, that's how it's done.
>
>> And if he detonates his bomb (I guess he
>>must have hidden it under his Uzi while going through the security
>>checkpoint, but that's another matter),
>
>You did away with the security checkpoints as part of your "freedom to
>carry lethal weapons on aircraft" act, remember?
>
>>then at least I will have died
>>trying to save myself and everyone else onboard.
>
>Congratulations, Now can we have an option where everybody doesn't
>die? Like an intelligence network that allows us to identify this guy
>before he got on the plane? Or maybe going over to Afghanistan and
>taking out Bin Laden and his training camps once and for all?
>
>Or maybe a war where when we win, we don't let the bad guy and his
>army remain intact like desert storm?
>
>You gotta be pro-active. You sit around and wait with a gun in your
>pants and your suicide fantasy is gonna come true real quick.
>
>>Hmm. Well, I'd be ALIVE to face the next one.
>
>That doesn't seem to be part of your plan, does it?
>
>>Well, let's see. So far, your example has required us to go from four
>>guys, to one with an Uzi, to one with a bomb, to one driving his
>>automobile on board (bomb in the glove box), to having to shoot everyone
>>with "dark skin", to having to fight with "every Arab and Palestinian in
>>the Middle East"... Now, tell us, Mr. TERP- JUST HOW GODDAMN BIG IS
>>THIS AIRPLANE SUPPOSED TO BE?!?!?!?!? Last time I looked, Southwest
>>was still flying 737s, NOT C-5s.
>
>It's not how big the plane is, it's how many planes THERE ARE, because
>if we sit around and wait for them to come after us there's gonna be
>terrorists on all of them. And the trains and boats and the shopping
>malls, too.
>
>But that doesn't matter to you, because you're dead, remember? And Bin
>Laden just sent a hundred more guys over to bomb your wife and your
>kids, and your mom . . .
>
>>But that's alright. I think those who are following this argument can
>>decide for themselves about the validity of your arguments
>
>It seems pretty simple to me. You're dead, the passengers and crew are
>dead, but you feel justified that you did your part.
>
>Oh, and you showed you had balls.
>
>> the facts still boil down
>>to this- YOUR position is that we, as individuals, are supposed to put
>>our safety and well-being, in fact our very lives, into the hands of the
>>all-powerful State, in the hopes that it will find us as useful assets
>>and will bother to spare its resources to defend its property. MY
>>position is that we are ALL free citizens, and as such have both the
>>RIGHT and the DUTY to protect ourselves, without allowing either our
>>freedom or our survival to be determined by the whims of others.
>
>Or to put it another way, I want to take action to prevent a disaster,
>you want to sit around and wait for it to be dropped on our doorstep.
>
>Rather than take advantage of thousands of trained professionals
>you've already paid for, and billions in technology, you just want to
>wait and hope that some terrorist is stupid enough to let you know who
>he is and give you time to shoot him.
>
>>Yeah. Being willing to fight back was really popular in the 19th
>>Century. I guess those 21st Century battles are going to be really
>>passive.
>
>Not really, 21st century battles are pro-active and high tech. The
>idea is to get them BEFORE they get here and kill your mother.
>
>Novel concept, but it works for me.
>
>>You mean, the guy sitting in his VW parked in the aircraft aisle,
>>holding an Uzi in one hand and a bomb detonator in the other? What, now
>>he's wearing camoflauge too?!?!? Aw heck, you're gonna make this really
>>hard, now aren't you?
>
>Very funny. You're a clever boy, aren't you? Except the bomb detonator
>is in his pocket, the UZI is up your ass, and the VW is parked outside
>your wife's church packed with explosives and a timer set for when
>service lets out.
>
>But you don't have to worry, BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT A GUN!
>
>And burial insurance, I hope.
>
>>Yeah, if you don't fight back and wait for the "professionals" to come
>>along and defend you, that's how its pretty much going to happen.
>
>That's right, because in your world the terrorists will all yell "I'm
>a terrorist, and I'm here to kill you!", then wait nicely for you to
>sneak up behind them and put a bullet in their brain.
>
>> Gee, guess I better hope you don't send in
>>the Stormtroopers to smash in my windows and kick in my doors, huh?
>
>Make up your mind, am I a liberal or a fascist?
>
>I guess it doesn't matter, because you're dead, along with the crew
>and all the people on your plane.
>
>Too bad you didn't think to go over to Afghanistan and kill him and
>his buddies on THEIR soil.
>
>But I guess that would be too 21st century, wouldn't it? Taking the
>battle to them takes more than one guy. It takes cooperation, it takes
>resources, and yes, intelligence. Never mind that we already have all
>of that sitting around doing nothing, Jay wants to do it cowboy style!
>
>In Jay's world we wait around and let the Terrorists pick the time,
>the place and the way they're going to kill us and our families, then
>we count on his razor sharp wits and lightning fast trigger fingers to
>save the day, just like in the John Wayne movies.
> YEE-HAWW!!!
>
>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe, send e-mail to: <mil-veh-off@mil-veh.org>
>To switch to the DIGEST mode, send e-mail to <mil-veh-digest@mil-veh.org>
>To reach a human, contact <ack@mil-veh.org>
>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Mon Oct 08 2001 - 10:58:59 PDT