From: Jim Gilmore (jgilmore@ptd.net)
Date: Thu Feb 26 2004 - 19:45:12 PST
John wrote:
>Jim's Statement:
> > Yes, however........... they are both incorrect.
>
>I believe that he is correct from the standpoint that there was no designated
>color change during WWII, but I disagree from the practical standpoint for the
>following reasons
>
>1. My experience- I have been collecting for over 25 years, and in that time
>have owned numerous original un-opened parts and pieces of military vehicles
>and accessories, as well as other things which were painted with the same #319
>OD as prescribed. I can say that there is definitely a difference/variations
>between parts. I can also say that there is a tendency for vehicle parts and
>pieces from very early in the war to have a darker tone, and sometimes a different
>shade than the middle of the war items I have owned. Another item to address
>is the pre-war items. What color were they? I believe that the shade was darker,
>even if by formulation in stead of actual color designation, which leads me
>into my next argument:
I mean no disrespect but............None of your vehicle parts are painted in #319 green. They may be painted in Lusterless Olive Drab but not # 319 Lusterless Olive Drab. # 319 Olive Drab is indeed a WW II paint but not for vehicles......
Now you say........" can also say that there is a tendency for vehicle parts and
pieces from very early in the war to have a darker tone, and sometimes a different
shade than the middle of the war items I have owned. ..........."
Really? You can tell a 1943 tail light from a 1944 tail light? You can tell the year of a REPLACEMENT part just by looking at it? I have several boxes of unopened WW II jeep parts..........can you tell me what year they were produced by looking at them? Can you say for sure what month and year each part was produced?
Are you saying that because some replacement parts that you have are different shades that the vehicles were as well? What do you base your data on? Do you have any actual documentation that supports your theory that there was more than one color of Lusterless Olive Drab?
>2. War Economy. All through WWII, there was a continual economizing of war
>materials. The recurrent efforts to manufacture using lower labor cost and
>less essential materials certainly could have influenced how paints were formulated,
>manufactured, and applied. This has not been addressed to my satisfaction by
>any research.
Again , I mean no disrespect but you appear to have not done actual research into the paint and procurement policies of the QMC and ORD in WW II.
You are simply stating what most people say..........there was a war on........they used anything they had........
This is not true. Government specifications were very strict. QMC and ORD Inspectors would not accept paint that was not within the specs. that were set down by the agency. This is fact and research into the QMC files will prove this out.
Formulas did go through some changes but the color was still the same.
When you sat that "......This has not been addressed to my satisfaction by
any research.........." Who's research are you referring to?
Not to ours that is sure as you have no idea how much research we have done or the hundreds of documents we have gone through.
>
>
>3. Color mechanics- Unfortunately, since most of us are men, we have a serious
>disadvantage in participating in this argument. Nearly 65% of men have some
>degree of color blindness as clinically defined. I mention this because two
>very good friends of mine have shown me IN THEIR HANDS items which were two
>different shades of OD and sworn up and down that what they were showing me
>was the same color.
Again, you do not understand the paint business. Color blind people do not work in pigment mixing. You do not understand that color pigment specialists were a very high paying job years ago. I believe you also do not know how large quantities of paint are mixed. I have pages and pages of documents and formulas for paint from the Ford Motor Company Archives. I was a Ink mixer for the Detroit Newspapers for over 20 years and mixed 300 to 500 pounds of color at one time. Paints are mixed to a weight formula that is very exact. You actually can be color blind and using the formulas, can mix pigments to the exact color every time.
>4. Fading- While not really supporting my argument, it still bears mentioning.
> I don't think that items built later in WWII were painted with as many coats,
>or at least with as thick of coats, as earlier items were. I would guess that
>in sunlight, the thinner paint job would fade faster than the thicker job.
Again, you are guessing here.........in fact the "coats" (actually a thickness of paint and not a number of coats is the QMC spec.) were the same all throughout production.
You are correct on the effects of fading.........
Fading is why we do not use old paint on vehicles as a guide to colors.
>Also, hats off to Jim for doing all of this research. I think it is very credible
>and is a signifigant component of this debate. But I also think that this debate
>is not over nor conclusively proved by his methods and sources of research-
>only chemical and spectrum analysis of well preserved non contaminated samples
>would be definitive. But this would be very difficult.
John.....thank you but....I do not think you know how much research I have done............or how far we have gone.......been there and done that already!
Let me quote something I have posted on this from the G-503 website (where we have discussed this at length)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From a discussion on the G-503.........
Chuck wrote,
"......Uh...Jim....perhaps we should consult a person who makes paints (paint chemist for a paint company) and have them look at the list of contents on one of those cans of WW II OD made during the war and have them tell us if the contents CAN or CAN'T be used in the mfg. of modern paints in the USA? ......."
Now Chuck..........Do really think I have not done this already? Really.........you have no idea of all the work and research I have already done on this.......for over 10 years I have been researching the correct color of Lusterless Olive Drab paint. I've driven over 1,000 miles round trip to go to the National Archives and dig through the QMC "Lusterless Olive Drab" files.......read countless documents, gotten samples of original paint, talked to chemists to determine what and how it was done.
Because of this research........... I know why Yellow pigment looks yellow and Blue looks blue.....why Peacock Blue pigment is a minus red pigment while Yellow is a minus blue pigment .....why Chromium Oxide pigment is used and what the difference is from Chromium Hydrate pigment.......I know what the difference is between Lusterless Olive Drab and Lusterless Olive Drab # 319.....and why each is used in certain applications and not in others.......the use of metallic soap driers in paint..........Why Rutile Titanium Dioxide (R-610) is so important in the composition of Lusterless military paint pigments.......why the use of it is the same in Holabird ES-680a, US Engineers T-1599a -PL-1712, US Army 3-175 and Army-Navy Aeronautical AN-TT-436a Type 2 Specifications but not in the earlier (O-600) Navy Buships 52-T-B , Army-Navy Aeronautical AN-TT-436a Type-1, BuAir RM-130-6 Type 2 and Fed Spec. TT-P-40 specifications..........Why Precipitated Iron Oxide pigments are so necessary in Lusterless Olive Drab # 319 paint but not as much in Lusterless Olive Drab paint............I have the data on the difference of visual perception of Panchromatic vs Orthro films as it pertains to photographic reproduction of OD paint and the spectral sensitivity of the same..........how and why Munsell Neutral Scales are used in determining the reflectance value of pigments and coatings..........I know why the paint finish should match as closely as possible the spectral characteristics of the rise of the chlorophyll curve in reflective transmittance ........I have the actual charts of the recording spectrophotometer (G. E. Hardy Mfg. Sn # 718061) of the reflective transmittance of the pigments (Phthalocyanine Blue, Indigo Blue, Titanium Dioxide White, Black Antimony Sulfide and such...) used in the manufacture of the WW II paints.......I have the charts for determination of Wavelength Ordinates for calculating Infra Red reflectances from spectrophotometric curves (using the standard Spectral Radiant Intensity for Illumination of the Tungsten 200 Watt, 115 volt lamp) and how and why it is used in determining the Infra Red values of pigments, paint and coatings..........I have researched the physics of color........the absorption and reflection of colors......the methods of producing color sensations in the human eye....(the eye is unable to judge or to appraise color except by making comparisons or by contrast) ....the inability of the eye to remember colors except by comparison with fixed standards......color fatigue of the eye and so on and so on......................
end of post........from the G-503..
Now.......I post this not to show off and use big words but to show the huge amount of research that we have already done on the WW II OD paint question............
Jim Gilmore
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