From: Dave Ball (vought@msn.com)
Date: Sat Sep 07 2002 - 23:46:34 PDT
You have some valid points Jeff but in truth the military versions of the
Hummer( HMMWV) have never and will never receive DOT approval. How do I
know this I was told so by AMG I called and asked them.
Why you ask would I ask them because of investment protection and my
Insurance agent's reluctance to Insure a M1026.
I saw this as a formality I can tell you it is not so. I thought I could get
this from the state referee, but it is done by the manufacturers.
There is crash testing, electrical, lighting and little things like a padded
dash and interior that are not in the military hummers and a whole laundry
list that will keep the HWWMV from getting DOT approved but the biggest
reason it will never happen is that AMG will never do this it is expensive
and not needed to sell Tactical vehicles to the government.
I think from all the discussions I have heard over the last 25 years it is
always the manufacturers intent to keep there military vehicles off of the
public roads.
Even WW2 Jeeps and vehicles were given away (loaned) to other countries to
keep them off the market in the USA. I read some where that Willys was
working on the CJ and Agra Jeep and lobbied to keep the military Jeeps off
the market. I don't know if that's true but it makes economic sense.
Anyone know what the home built kit cars do for this DOT certificate they
operate on the public roads?
I know the Warbird owners have an experimental class to get around some of
these kind of problems?
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Polidoro" <willys@vgernet.net>
To: "Military Vehicles Mailing List" <mil-veh@mil-veh.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [MV] Who's Vehicle is it? (was: Big Brother IS watching for
sure!)
> The answer is pretty simple. Rights are not absloute. We each give up
> rights in exchange for (hopefully) the common good. For example, we give
up
> the right to drive on the left side of the road in exchange for the peace
of
> mind of proceeding without worry in the right lane. We give up the right
to
> go through red lights so we can go through green lights without stopping.
> It's pretty clear that this exchange of rights benefits us all and that it
> breaks down severely when someone insists on absolute rights.
>
> Even less obvious things like seatbelt laws follow the same logic. Think
> you have right to ride around unbelted because it's your life? Think
again.
> Your rights end at my front bumper. If you hit a bump and can't remain
> seated and lose control of your vehicle if could guarantee you will kill
> only yourself you may have a point but if you losing control makes you hit
> me, well that's a violation of my right to proceed umimpeded.
>
> As far as titling a rebuilt M151, fact is M151s were never DOT'ed, meaning
> that unlike MBs and GPWs which predate the requirement and HMMWVs which
were
> DOT'ed as Hummers, they were never evaluated by the DOT for
roadworthiness.
> It is against Federal law to drive a non-DOT compliant vehicle on public
> roads. Same for non-DOT tires like agricultural tires. They have no DOT
> stamps so they are not for on-road use.
>
> No matter how you got your M151, beg, borrow, steal, or weld, unless you
> have it certified by the DOT for crashworthiness-- front impact, rollover,
> side impact, short term emissions, long term emissions and a host of other
> tests it's not legal to drive on-road. The fact that folks have been able
> to register them is a stroke of luck. But if you get in the wrong guy's
> face-- one who knows this-- you may end up with an M151 shaped planter on
> your front lawn.
>
> JP
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jonathon" <jemery@execpc.com>
> To: "Military Vehicles Mailing List" <mil-veh@mil-veh.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 11:48 PM
> Subject: [MV] Who's Vehicle is it? (was: Big Brother IS watching for
sure!)
>
>
> > >I think the Bureaucrats have given some of us a break. If not do you
know
> > >what would become of Gama Goats and 151A2's and a few other vehicles
that
> > >were demilled as in cut in half or rendered unoperational or sold with
> paper
> > >stating for off road use only.
> > >Just because its repaired and registered for the highway by an agency
not
> in
> > >the loop doesn't make it legal.
> >
> > I post this to the list in general, I am not being critical at all of
your
> > post Dave, the topic just got me thinking about this subject on a more
> > general level.
> >
> >
> > Since when does a seller of anything have any right, legally, to control
> the
> > use of something they sell to someone else?
> >
> > I have a thought experiment here, perhaps if you believe that property
> > rights are absolute you'd agree with me, perhaps others have differing
or
> > divergent viewpoints.
> >
> > The M151 is a good example as I want one but after collecting this stuff
> for
> > almost 20 years I do not yet have one. Concider that I buy several
> scrapped
> > vehicles which were sold (auctioned) as scrap or residue. Now I spend
much
> > time and effort and perhaps money and I put one good vehicle back
> together.
> > Is it then an M151? If I go to the state to title and license it, is it
an
> > M151 to them? I would have to say no on both question, it is a
> > reconstructed vehicle and perhaps depending on how much work I had to go
> > thru it might even be concidered home built. But to a fellow MV
collector,
> > is it an M151? I'd say yes. I listen to people talk about titling
> problems
> > and I have to wonder what the big deal is with titles. Personally I
think
> > they are useless and should be abandonded all together. But that won't
be
> > happening soon. But what is the big deal about a title being correct
for
> > the vehicle as built? So what if it says a 1996 home built truck (my
> > rewelded M151) or a 1963 Ford M151? So long as the serial number is
> correct
> > who cares? And as to serial numbers, I have talked to people where the
> state
> > refused to use the original number that was on the vehicle and they
issued
> a
> > new VIN of the states choosing along with a small state issued tag and
> > little rivets with a "W" on the head (W for Wisconsin) to attach it
with.
> > Seems to me if I had a choice between fighting them over a title that
> > matched the vehicle as built and having a new VIN with a small id plate
I
> > had to attach somewhere, I guess I'd just as soon go with a new small
> plate
> > and new VIN for the title. What difference is that going to make to any
> > person I would sell it to in the future?
> >
> > Going back to reconstructing an M151, lets take that a step further.
What
> if
> > I was so inclinded to make a body from scratch that was indistiguishable
> > from an original Ford or AMG. Is that then an M151? Having seen the work
> of
> > people such as John Geesink I would say that the right person can do
this.
> > As to this idea of the seller (government) controlling the use of what
> they
> > sell, at what point is the item you posess the same or not at all the
same
> > as the original item? Is the M151 that I got cut and then rewelded an
> M151?
> > What if I put a body together from many cut, crushed, or wrecked bodies,
> > should they be able to lay some claim on that? What then if I make a
body
> > from scratch??? Where is that line, if any?
> >
> > Seem to me this stuff is sold (auctioned) by the government either as a
> > whole operable vehicle, implying a 97 would come with it, or as scrap
> metal.
> > What I do with either is my business.
> >
> > So go another step. M60's, M1's etc. are not supposed to be in private
> hands
> > at all right? So what if I reconstruct one from scraped units? what if I
> > make one from scratch? Can the government then come in and confiscate
it?
> Is
> > either really a tank (of thiers)? Again..... how and where do you make
the
> > distinction?
> >
> >
> > Sorry to ramble on so much, this topic is of some interest to me and it
> has
> > come up before, just looking for any interesting opinions I guess.
> >
> > later,
> >
> > je
> >
> >
> >
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> >
>
>
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>
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