From: Jeff Polidoro (willys@vgernet.net)
Date: Sat Sep 07 2002 - 21:25:05 PDT
The answer is pretty simple. Rights are not absloute. We each give up
rights in exchange for (hopefully) the common good. For example, we give up
the right to drive on the left side of the road in exchange for the peace of
mind of proceeding without worry in the right lane. We give up the right to
go through red lights so we can go through green lights without stopping.
It's pretty clear that this exchange of rights benefits us all and that it
breaks down severely when someone insists on absolute rights.
Even less obvious things like seatbelt laws follow the same logic. Think
you have right to ride around unbelted because it's your life? Think again.
Your rights end at my front bumper. If you hit a bump and can't remain
seated and lose control of your vehicle if could guarantee you will kill
only yourself you may have a point but if you losing control makes you hit
me, well that's a violation of my right to proceed umimpeded.
As far as titling a rebuilt M151, fact is M151s were never DOT'ed, meaning
that unlike MBs and GPWs which predate the requirement and HMMWVs which were
DOT'ed as Hummers, they were never evaluated by the DOT for roadworthiness.
It is against Federal law to drive a non-DOT compliant vehicle on public
roads. Same for non-DOT tires like agricultural tires. They have no DOT
stamps so they are not for on-road use.
No matter how you got your M151, beg, borrow, steal, or weld, unless you
have it certified by the DOT for crashworthiness-- front impact, rollover,
side impact, short term emissions, long term emissions and a host of other
tests it's not legal to drive on-road. The fact that folks have been able
to register them is a stroke of luck. But if you get in the wrong guy's
face-- one who knows this-- you may end up with an M151 shaped planter on
your front lawn.
JP
----- Original Message -----
From: "jonathon" <jemery@execpc.com>
To: "Military Vehicles Mailing List" <mil-veh@mil-veh.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 11:48 PM
Subject: [MV] Who's Vehicle is it? (was: Big Brother IS watching for sure!)
> >I think the Bureaucrats have given some of us a break. If not do you know
> >what would become of Gama Goats and 151A2's and a few other vehicles that
> >were demilled as in cut in half or rendered unoperational or sold with
paper
> >stating for off road use only.
> >Just because its repaired and registered for the highway by an agency not
in
> >the loop doesn't make it legal.
>
> I post this to the list in general, I am not being critical at all of your
> post Dave, the topic just got me thinking about this subject on a more
> general level.
>
>
> Since when does a seller of anything have any right, legally, to control
the
> use of something they sell to someone else?
>
> I have a thought experiment here, perhaps if you believe that property
> rights are absolute you'd agree with me, perhaps others have differing or
> divergent viewpoints.
>
> The M151 is a good example as I want one but after collecting this stuff
for
> almost 20 years I do not yet have one. Concider that I buy several
scrapped
> vehicles which were sold (auctioned) as scrap or residue. Now I spend much
> time and effort and perhaps money and I put one good vehicle back
together.
> Is it then an M151? If I go to the state to title and license it, is it an
> M151 to them? I would have to say no on both question, it is a
> reconstructed vehicle and perhaps depending on how much work I had to go
> thru it might even be concidered home built. But to a fellow MV collector,
> is it an M151? I'd say yes. I listen to people talk about titling
problems
> and I have to wonder what the big deal is with titles. Personally I think
> they are useless and should be abandonded all together. But that won't be
> happening soon. But what is the big deal about a title being correct for
> the vehicle as built? So what if it says a 1996 home built truck (my
> rewelded M151) or a 1963 Ford M151? So long as the serial number is
correct
> who cares? And as to serial numbers, I have talked to people where the
state
> refused to use the original number that was on the vehicle and they issued
a
> new VIN of the states choosing along with a small state issued tag and
> little rivets with a "W" on the head (W for Wisconsin) to attach it with.
> Seems to me if I had a choice between fighting them over a title that
> matched the vehicle as built and having a new VIN with a small id plate I
> had to attach somewhere, I guess I'd just as soon go with a new small
plate
> and new VIN for the title. What difference is that going to make to any
> person I would sell it to in the future?
>
> Going back to reconstructing an M151, lets take that a step further. What
if
> I was so inclinded to make a body from scratch that was indistiguishable
> from an original Ford or AMG. Is that then an M151? Having seen the work
of
> people such as John Geesink I would say that the right person can do this.
> As to this idea of the seller (government) controlling the use of what
they
> sell, at what point is the item you posess the same or not at all the same
> as the original item? Is the M151 that I got cut and then rewelded an
M151?
> What if I put a body together from many cut, crushed, or wrecked bodies,
> should they be able to lay some claim on that? What then if I make a body
> from scratch??? Where is that line, if any?
>
> Seem to me this stuff is sold (auctioned) by the government either as a
> whole operable vehicle, implying a 97 would come with it, or as scrap
metal.
> What I do with either is my business.
>
> So go another step. M60's, M1's etc. are not supposed to be in private
hands
> at all right? So what if I reconstruct one from scraped units? what if I
> make one from scratch? Can the government then come in and confiscate it?
Is
> either really a tank (of thiers)? Again..... how and where do you make the
> distinction?
>
>
> Sorry to ramble on so much, this topic is of some interest to me and it
has
> come up before, just looking for any interesting opinions I guess.
>
> later,
>
> je
>
>
>
> ===Mil-Veh is a member-supported mailing list===
> To unsubscribe, send e-mail to: <mil-veh-off@mil-veh.org>
> To switch to the DIGEST mode, send e-mail to <mil-veh-digest@mil-veh.org>
> To reach a human, contact <ack@mil-veh.org>
>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Wed Apr 23 2003 - 13:21:19 PDT