From: Dave Ball (vought@msn.com)
Date: Thu Oct 10 2002 - 17:13:36 PDT
My point to everyone was simple while I do not wear military gear because I
believe I have not earned the right. Many or most of the reenactors today do
not have the right either. I feel if you are going to reenact then do it
with respect for those you portray. While in the uniform take pride in what
it represents do your show and get out of the uniform.
I have seen many 20 year old WW2 Sergeants driving Jeeps loaded and even
more drinking and caring on. If you people truly mean what you say then walk
the walk and talk the talk reenact to battle then get out of the uniform.
You have the right to reenact if you like and I am not telling you to stop I
am saying it is not serving the purpose you believe it to if you do it for
yourself.
I have given plenty of Vets rides in my Vehicles they all compliment me even
in Levis and t-shirt you do not need a uniform to collect Military Vehicles.
And as for our Dads, Brothers and Uncles being forgotten ask them what they
want to be remembered for my guess is it will not be War.
Mine wants to be remembered as a good man a father and someone one who cared
about his country and friends not a Soldier.
I think you need to listen to what you are saying we do not need to teach
our children about War we need to protect them from it why in the hell do
you think my Dad went to Europe just so you could find his uniform put it on
and let a whole bunch of Germans play war and chase you around for children
to watch I do not think so he went there so I would not have to, so you
would not have to, that's what all soldiers go to war for to protect those
they love and to keep them safe.
You can play Soldier all you want go for it let me restate something again.
Next time you throw on that Uniform and jump in your truck think about the
thoughts going through the peoples heads watching you drive by especially
those men and women who you are portraying does it do them justice are you
entitled to wear the uniform or are you a child in a soldiers clothes.
I have received a dozen emails from Vets off list they all feel the same I
wish some would come forward to the list you need to let your feelings be
known.
Dave Ball
----- Original Message -----
From: "HOWARD WRIGHT" <dvsww2@mindspring.com>
To: <mil-veh@mil-veh.org>; "Dave Ball" <vought@msn.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 3:33 PM
Subject: RE: [MV] Reenactors have no right!!! unless they were there
> Dave, as a veteran reenactor, I have to take exception to some of your
> comments. Let me say that I am not a Veteran having only missed being
> inducted as I could not pass the physical. I lost some close friends over
> there who didn't come back. My father was a WWII Vet who is now deceased.
> I can tell you this that I understand more of the sacrifices that my Dad
> and his buddies, people on the homefront gave in order to give respect for
> those who fought to keep us free. I think you feel the terror and concern
> that our forefather's had when you see a whole street of Germans armed and
> coming after you, Most WWII vets that I've met were quite happy with our
> impressions and are just plain amazed why we would spend the time
gathering
> up field gear from dusty garages and basements to do it authentically and
> correct. I think the tale of the tape is when they want their picture
taken
> with them and their families, or will bring their grandchildren or great
> grand children to see a display. We collect MV's also and although we
don't
> strive for a 100% show car appearance as ours are used and used hard in
the
> field. My 45 GPW has been converted to 12 volts and is a good runner with
a
> CJ engine. We are still an MV collector and deserve some respect within
> the hobby. In the past we've had some MV owners try reenacting and enjoy
> it. One guy with a Halftrack had a ball hauling troops and fording a
> creek. He said it was more fun than being in a parade. I hope I can
> continue to reenact WWII so the Veterans like my Dad won't be forgotten.
> The schools sure won't teach it, Will You? Respectfully, Howard Wright,
> 325th GIR 82nd AB, TSG I.O.N. Chapter, IMPVA
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Dave Ball <vought@msn.com>
> > To: <mil-veh@mil-veh.org>
> > Date: 10/10/02 1:42:48 PM
> > Subject: [MV] Reenactors have no right!!! unless they were there
> >
> > I have been lurking and reading here is my two cents. first you should
> know
> > I missed Vietnam by a few years but watched it all through my High
school
> > years and through the eyes of a brother John who is a Marine (who
> sometimes
> > lurks on this list) John is a half brother procured from my Dads early
> days
> > in England you see my Dad was a WW2 Navigator in the 8th AAF and flew 72
> > missions in 44-45 France and Germany aboard the flying gas tanks called
> > Liberators (B24).
> > I collect and display Military Vehicles I do not wear Military Clothing
or
> > Insignia I am not entitled to. I display the vehicles because as tools
of
> > war they have historical value.
> > Uniforms have the same value but to me it is best served when seen on a
> > mannequin.
> > Both my Dad and Brother have a hard time telling stories because usually
> the
> > outcome is people getting killed. I have heard them tell each other the
> > horrors of there wars and seen the looks in there eyes and I know I am
> > missing a large part of the story the part they feel in there guts the
> tears
> > flow easy with these two men and they are as tough as any man I ever
met.
> > My Father Came to a military Collectors club meet about twenty years ago
> and
> > saw people wearing "costumes" and he was not happy about it especially
the
> > Axis gear
> > he has never returned and has not spoken about it other than to tell me
> > this.
> > Everyday he put his uniform on and pulled his boots on he felt sick to
his
> > stomach the ride to the plane was a tough one after the engines were
> running
> > and he was busy he would get lost in his job once over the target the
sick
> > felling would return when he felt the plane lurch as the bombs left he
new
> > people were dying on the ground and he was sick as were his friends all
> the
> > way home even while evading flak and what little fighters were left.
> > When he came home in 46 he took his bags and put them in the attic and
he
> > never looked at his uniforms again and he started drinking heavily and
did
> > so for twenty five years.
> > My Dad also had heartbreak at an 8th AAF reunion in France he felt very
> hurt
> > at the sight of the French parading around in GI Gear especially flyers
> > gear he will never return to Europe he told me some of the French had on
> > repro flyers jackets with plane names from his group that had gone down
> over
> > Germany with all on board lost many of his friend felt it was a dishonor
> to
> > those brave souls and there families that they would wear the jackets
> > without the knowledge of what the insignia represented to those very men
> > watching them do so when asked many French had no Idea what unit or the
> > outcome of the plane crew who's nose art and names were on theses
jackets.
> > By Brothers stories are much more horrifying he was wounded badly lost a
> > limb and came home to a country who would rather spit on him than help
him
> > recover.
> > He took off his uniform and threw them away he was ashamed to be near
them
> > he has gone through more pain than any man deserves but he has survived.
> > John has healed and owns a M151 although he only uses it in Parades he
> still
> > will not wear any part of a uniform he proudly fly's the American Flag
> that
> > of the USMC and the MIA/POW flag on his MUTT.
> > As kids we play with GI Joes (I have watched my son) as we grow up we
> forget
> > that what the uniform represents is our armed services and is designed
to
> > tell them apart on the battlefield.
> > Reenacting is nothing more than grown ups playing GI Joe it serves no
> > purpose other than to remind of us of horrible mistakes and
disagreements
> > that went sour and needed to be solved by taking life.
> > I have been to a few reenactments they do not entertain me but make me
> think
> > about my Dad and my Brother and all the other young men thrust into the
> > situation of taking life or losing there's it usually brings tears for
me
> it
> > is not fun much like visiting the USS Arizona .
> > Playing war is nothing more than a Childs game it serves no man but to
> make
> > him remember the past and the hell that plagues his memory this in
itself
> is
> > wrong most reenactors do not know of War only of the game of playing
> > Soldier.
> > Next time you throw on that Uniform and jump in your truck think about
the
> > thoughts going through the peoples heads watching you drive by
especially
> > those men and women who you are portraying does it do them justice are
you
> > entitled to wear the uniform or are you a child in a soldiers clothes.
> >
> > Dave Ball
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Henry J. Fackovec" <hfackovec@easternems.com>
> > To: "Military Vehicles Mailing List" <mil-veh@mil-veh.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 4:44 AM
> > Subject: [MV] FW: [MV] Military Only Zone-Response (copy of attack from
> > Andrew Lawrence)
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Nichelle m Lawrence [mailto:aplreenactor@juno.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:07 AM
> > > To: hfackovec@easternems.com
> > > Subject: Re: [MV] Military Only Zone-Response
> > >
> > >
> > > Henry,
> > >
> > > It seems that you have pleaded an interesting case here about your
> > > problem with reenacting and our, as put it, "playing dress up" This
> > > statement you make is really out of line and makes you look like an
> > > idiot. Let me ask you a question, if I may. Are you a veteran? No, I
am
> > > not. My father served in the 4th Battalion, 503rd Infantry, Company B,
> > > of the 173rd Airborne. He spent two tours voluntarily and found it to
be
> > > scarier than hell and equally as fun. He made friends and lost
friends.
> > > He saved lives and he took lives. He is proud of what he did and what
he
> > > was. A veteran and a hero in his families eyes. He feels that
reenactors
> > > and the idea behind the hobby are wonderful. Now, while your father
was
> > > pushing papers in the office during his stint, was he thinking about
the
> > > time when people would be proud of him for the work he did to help win
> > > the United States our freedom, or did he take the protestors shit and
> > > try to hide his emotions?
> > > I have been a Civil War reenactor for 15 years and a World War
> > > II reenactor for 5 years. I am also a public school teacher. I find
that
> > > the hands on approach to learning is the only way to truly know what
it
> > > is you are interested in or desire to learn. Reenacting is the way I
> > > know what a soldier from the 1860's or 1940's feels like and what it
was
> > > like to be them. I love American history and I learn it all types of
> > > ways and reenacting is the best way I know how.
> > > And please, from now on leave your petty nonsense at home.
Thank
> > > you for your time and huzzah for reenactors!
> > >
> > >
> > > Y.M.O.S.
> > > Andrew P. Lawrence
> > > 84th Infantry Division
> > > Berdan Sharpshooters, 1st U.S.S.S., Company D
> > > 7th & 30th Volunteer Infantry, Missouri Irish Brigade
> > > 2nd Wisconsin, Company C, Iron Brigade
> > > 44th New York Volunteer Infantry, Company A
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 8 Oct 2002 11:04:31 -0400 "Henry J. Fackovec"
> > > <hfackovec@easternems.com> writes:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Tim Scherrer [mailto:soldierboy440@yahoo.com]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 10:36 AM
> > > > To: hfackovec@easternems.com
> > > > Cc: john cullifer; Allan Ensor; Heath Hensley; Andrew Lawrence;
> > > > Allen
> > > > Linquist; Matt; Charlie Palek; Randall Palmer
> > > > Subject: RE: [MV] Military Only Zone-Response
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > First off, we dress in period clothing, not current US
> > > > army clothing, so there is no legal issue of
> > > > impersonating anything. As for taking up acting....I
> > > > already have---reenacting. That is my hobby since
> > > > 1983.
> > > >
> > > > I think M series vehicles are just as historic and collectable as
WWII
> > >
> > > > vehicles but they don't belong at a WWII only event. Your
arguements
> > > > and problem with this event is sorta like me taking my GPW to a
Civil
> > > > War event and wondering my people think it isn't
> > > > correct.
> > > >
> > > > I am not sure what your problem is, but I really doubt
> > > > it involves me and my WWII only event..other than
> > > > being a target of your anger. If you don't like my event..then stay
> > > > home but also remember others may appreciate it for what it is. I
> > > > don't comment or go to your events just to rock the slurpee
> > > > machine...so I ask you not do it with mine.
> > > >
> > > > Tim
> > > >
> > > > --- "Henry J. Fackovec" <hfackovec@easternems.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Hmmmmmm....
> > > > >
> > > > > A person who likes to dress up in military clothing
> > > > > that was (AND THIS
> > > > > IS AN ASSUMPTION) not authorized, (earned or however
> > > > > the law would put
> > > > > it) to wear. If I recall this is not allowed under
> > > > > the MVPA rules, nor
> > > > > under the Federal Code. (One of the reasons that the
> > > > > NH club refuses to
> > > > > join with the national, is we have certain
> > > > > individuals that insist that
> > > > > playing dress up is a god given right.).
> > > > >
> > > > > If you like this sort of thing, perhaps you should
> > > > > consider taking up
> > > > > acting.
> > > > >
> > > > > Additionally, while you will argue that this living
> > > > > history stuff is "
> > > > > Keeping their memories alive" I would counter that
> > > > > many veterans (My
> > > > > father included), do not really need to be reminded
> > > > > of a period of the
> > > > > worlds history that was rife with mans inhumanity to
> > > > > man. Disruption of
> > > > > millions of lives, families loosing sons, daughters, etc...In my
> > > > > fathers words, " We fought and many died, so you would not
> > > > > have to wear that
> > > > > uniform...")
> > > > >
> > > > > I stand by my position that WWII vehicles are not
> > > > > nearly as historic as
> > > > > M series and should be collected, melted and made
> > > > > into wheel chocks for
> > > > > real vehicles. (Assuming the quality of the steel is
> > > > > high enough. <G>
> > > > >
> > > > > Hankie, ducking and hiding behind Ronzo this time.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Military Vehicles Mailing List [mailto:mil-veh@mil-veh.org]
> > > > On
> > > > > Behalf Of Tim Scherrer
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 12:12 AM
> > > > > To: Military Vehicles Mailing List
> > > > > Subject: [MV] Military Only Zone-Response
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, I was the guy who sent out the email saying
> > > > > the
> > > > > event had to WWII vehicles and the people dressed in
> > > > > WWII clothing, so the target is here if you want to
> > > > > take a swing at me.
> > > > >
> > > > > The thing of it is, the existing WWII vehicle convoy
> > > > > done in the midwest did not directly invite nor
> > > > > involve MVPA folks because it was intended as a
> > > > > reenactment rather than a pure MV event..and they
> > > > > didn't want to deal with non-WWII vehicles "farbing
> > > > > up" the event, or deal with MVers showing up in
> > > > > their
> > > > > jungle fatigues and Grizzly Adams beards trying to
> > > > > pass for WWII. They just avoided the issue by
> > > > > excluding everyone but a select few reenactors.
> > > > >
> > > > > My thoughts were...why not try and get more MVPA participation by
> > > >
> > > > > opening it up and giving them opportunities to bring WWII
> > > > vehicles.
> > > > > You scratch our
> > > > > back and we scratch yours. A win-win for everyone
> > > > > who
> > > > > can play..right?
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, I'm sorry if you are somehow offended that
> > > > > your
> > > > > M35 Duece or M151 can't play, but it doesn't fit the
> > > > > intent of the event. I am trying to bridge the gap
> > > > > between Reenactors and MV collectors in some
> > > > > reasonable manner. If you are also offended by the
> > > > > WWII clothing requirement (and my standards I listed
> > > > > are much looser than any respectable WWII
> > > > > reenactment), then you just don't get what I am
> > > > > trying
> > > > > to do here.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is likely why these types of events haven't
> > > > > occurred. I am not out to make this the 1,000
> > > > > vehicle
> > > > > march. I am just trying to connect up reenactors
> > > > > and
> > > > > MVers together to have some fun and do some
> > > > > interesting stuff. If you want to play but don't
> > > > > have
> > > > > a WWII vehicle, talk to a friend who does and get
> > > > > your impression
> > > > > together.
> > > > >
> > > > > If for some reason this whole concept infuriates
> > > > > you,
> > > > > well then this event is not for you and ignore the
> > > > > email. I am putting a lot of work into trying
> > > > > something new..and of course those who try new
> > > > > things
> > > > > always are criticized. Go put something else
> > > > > together
> > > > > if you are so inflamed.
> > > > >
> > > > > Tim Scherrer
> > > > > Co, 84th ID, Reenacted
> > > > > WWIIHRS, MVPA
> > > > > Coordinator of Columbia, MO Convoy
> > > > >
> > > > > __________________________________________________
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> > > >
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>
> --- HOWARD WRIGHT
> --- dvsww2@mindspring.com
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