Re: [MV] WW II OD (was) Original paint color for M135?

From: David Cole (DavidCole@tk7.net)
Date: Tue Mar 02 2004 - 16:16:28 PST


Some years ago I worked for GM as an engineer/student in paint shop an
assembly plant west of Detroit (now shutdown). At the time, late 70's
early 80's, they were using reflow lacquer to paint the cars. We did
Chevy's, Buicks, Olds, and Pontiacs on the same line. I was told by the
paint reps that the paint we were using was pretty much useless unless it
was allowed to reflow in the bake ovens. Consequently the repair paint,
used in the paint repair part of the plant had a different formulation.
And sometimes a different tint.

Regarding breaking the specs, this was the late 70's and the term quality
control was the department in the front of the plant. They had guys that
walked around and complained about this and that. If you were good you
could avoid them. Color matching was done by holding up samples next to
the paint. Orange peel was a new term. In other words everything was
pretty crude and we had a new paint shop. In fact it was the second GM
paint shop to dip the car bodies in an Elpo primer tank. (Van Nuys, CA was
the first - also shut down)

Production came first, and the quality guys shook their heads when cars
were shipped out the door without hoods, fenders etc. If the parts truck
didn't make the dock and the parts were needed, they were put on later if
the vehicle would roll out the door.

The same type of things occurred in the paint shop. If you ran out of
thinner X and you had 2000 gallons of thinner Y, you could either
substitute the thinner and see what happens, or you could have the
production manager (aka, the plant Drill Sargent screaming at you
(literally)) Guess what happened.

That GM plant was very typical of Auto plants of that day. I can only
imagine the stuff they pulled during wartime vehicle assembly. I bet some
trucks left he plant without paint, only to be painted later, etc. I can't
believe that exact color control was a very high priority during wartime.

Dave

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 02:05:19 -0600, Doc Bryant <rbhonk1@cox.net> wrote:

> It's late and I should be at work, but let me address Jim Gilmore's reply
> to
> my tongue firmly welded into cheek post of recent...
>
> I eventually tossed all my microfiches of the paint formulas. Hie ye to
> your local Sherwin Williams authorised dealer or factory store and flash
> those numbers to them. They ought to be able to fix you up in a jiffy.
> Also the folks from PPG Ditzler have a pretty extensive "antique" vehicle
> color library. I was envious of their database when I was in the
> business.
>
> All the manufacturers use a highly regulated standard of preparation and
> application. It does not mean it gets followed. The product they used
> as
> OE is different than the product applied in the aftermarket. We don't
> use
> the "turbo bell" applicators that use all sorts of high tech whizz bang
> things to apply paint which is then high heat baked. If the lines are
> not
> cleaned properly when doing a color change, there darn sure will be
> variations. If there were not these deviations from the Handed Down From
> God specs, paint reps would not have alternate color match formulations
> when
> they went to visit body shops.
>
> Thinner/reducer changes...
>
> Oops I ran out of the right stuff, this ought to work.
>
> Again, the guy in the booth does something out of sight of the shop
> manager
> inforcing the rules. He is smart enough to know how to blend across a
> panel. He hides his secret rocket science chemistry work. No one knows
> the
> difference until the paint fails. Oops, sorry lady, your warranty
> expired.
> Yes we have an out of sight warranty. When your car is out of sight, its
> out of warranty. Next victim please...
>
> For example, many people in my territory would use S-W's Polasol or
> Polasol
> Plus Acryld Enamel hardener in DuPont's Centari or PPG's Delstar. The
> same
> thing with S-W Enamel reducers. I sold more of those than I sold
> corresponding quantities of color. Why? Rocket Science chemistry as we
> called it. The Rocket Scientist who dabbled as a painter found out that
> our
> hardeners and reducers slowed the dry time of the other folks products,
> allowing longer flash off times and less die back due to solvent
> entrapment.
>
> Oh damn those detailed application instructions. At the time I was in
> the
> business, 99 out of 100 body shop managers did not give a rats rear end
> what
> happened in the paint booth as long as the job rolled out the door and
> did
> not come back. We reps saw it as a nightmare waiting to happen. But we
> knew we could deny any warranty help if we caught the Rocket Scientist in
> action. And secretly, all of us enjoyed the sales commisisions when a
> place
> that did not buy our color did indeed buy some of our other products. Oh
> the shame of it all!
>
> Synthetic enamels are air pressure and reduction sensitive. That changes
> dry time, which can change color. Look at a repair job under different
> lighting, parking lot lights, daylight, shade et cet. Having said that,
> the
> last time I shot synthetic enamel was one of the competitions brand
> (Sikkens) to repare a Ferrari that got keyed. We blended the repair as
> the
> factory supplied paint (red) was not a panel to panel (exact) color match
> to
> what was on the Ferrari.
>
> GM had a bit of trouble applying paint in their plants, as did the other
> manufacturers, even Ford, which sold their own paint line to DuPont eons
> ago.
>
> We sold paint initially to the repair shops based on the GM
> specification,
> and our approved match to that specification. We saw trouble when we
> were
> told our product did not match the cars. So, research found the
> variations
> in color as applied at the factory not to their approved standard. How
> we
> researched this was we returned car parts that were painted to that color
> code to our color lab for them to compare to their approved sample
> panels.
> Then the color lab issued variation formula so we could match what we
> found.
>
> My whole thrust of my post was to say that yes, there are standards, but
> sometimes the standard might not be as standard as you think.
>
> I noted in the posts of others who own Military Vehicles that there
> seemed
> to be some issue of what color was what, and what was applied, standards
> pertaining too...and all that Mil Spec Speak.
>
> My reply was in a nut shell, if it got repainted somewhere, maybe at Camp
> Swampy, Painter Beetle Bailey did not do what he was told, he did what he
> found out worked. Do remember the phrase, "Close enough for Government
> Work."
>
> I suppose if we were talking about Grey paint, we could wonder what
> Gruber
> and the rest of the gang at McHale's Navy did.... ;-)
>
>
> And sorry, but I have to disagree, the factory standards and procedures
> do
> get violated at the factory. That's what made my job so interesting.
> And
> since you and I were not in the paint booth, all we can see is the
> finished
> product.
>
> Let's move on....
>
> Primer Surfacers and Primer Sealers. The sealer is supposed to seal off
> the
> primer or the existing paint (if so authorized for overcoating, UH OH,
> Standards....Sorry. I slipped). There are now barrier coat sealers such
> as
> some of the European pioneered urethanes that can help prevent moisture
> incursion from the top coat to the bare metal. The nitrocellulose
> primers
> of WWII vintage were quite porous to water incursion. Also, they never
> really became solvent insensitive. An epoxy or linked urethane is a
> different matter. But not available then. If one were to use a urethane
> primer sealer under the paint of choice, expect to see a surface gloss
> difference due to the lack of solvent die back into the sealer barrier.
> Uh
> Oh, we just screwed up the standards. Oh no.
>
> Now, having noted that, when I finally paint my M37, its going to be a
> semi
> gloss AF Blue, and it will have urethane paint and primers. Will it be
> an
> exact replication of standards? Hell no, and I know it. Will I have to
> repaint in two years due to the West Texas sun? Wheeeeeoooo. No. And
> for
> that I will take a deviation from standards. Bring on the Firing and
> Flaming Squad!
>
> David Cole's ideas on moisture and system nature is pretty good. I will
> leave it alone.
> Remember, there is a solvent grip between paint coats (chemical) as there
> is
> a mechanical bond made by sanding off the gloss.
>
>
> Doc Bryant
>
> standards, we don need no steenkin standards......
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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-- 
Dave


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