From: bobbyjoe@chartertn.net
Date: Thu Oct 10 2002 - 17:36:41 PDT
The right was earned by the vets who fought and died in some far away hell
hole.
Bobby Joe Pendleton
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Ball" <vought@msn.com>
To: "Military Vehicles Mailing List" <mil-veh@mil-veh.org>
Sent: Thursday, 10 October, 2002 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [MV] Reenactors have no right!!! unless they were there
> My point to everyone was simple while I do not wear military gear because
I
> believe I have not earned the right. Many or most of the reenactors today
do
> not have the right either. I feel if you are going to reenact then do it
> with respect for those you portray. While in the uniform take pride in
what
> it represents do your show and get out of the uniform.
> I have seen many 20 year old WW2 Sergeants driving Jeeps loaded and even
> more drinking and caring on. If you people truly mean what you say then
walk
> the walk and talk the talk reenact to battle then get out of the uniform.
> You have the right to reenact if you like and I am not telling you to stop
I
> am saying it is not serving the purpose you believe it to if you do it for
> yourself.
> I have given plenty of Vets rides in my Vehicles they all compliment me
even
> in Levis and t-shirt you do not need a uniform to collect Military
Vehicles.
> And as for our Dads, Brothers and Uncles being forgotten ask them what
they
> want to be remembered for my guess is it will not be War.
> Mine wants to be remembered as a good man a father and someone one who
cared
> about his country and friends not a Soldier.
> I think you need to listen to what you are saying we do not need to teach
> our children about War we need to protect them from it why in the hell do
> you think my Dad went to Europe just so you could find his uniform put it
on
> and let a whole bunch of Germans play war and chase you around for
children
> to watch I do not think so he went there so I would not have to, so you
> would not have to, that's what all soldiers go to war for to protect those
> they love and to keep them safe.
> You can play Soldier all you want go for it let me restate something
again.
> Next time you throw on that Uniform and jump in your truck think about the
> thoughts going through the peoples heads watching you drive by especially
> those men and women who you are portraying does it do them justice are you
> entitled to wear the uniform or are you a child in a soldiers clothes.
>
> I have received a dozen emails from Vets off list they all feel the same I
> wish some would come forward to the list you need to let your feelings be
> known.
>
>
> Dave Ball
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "HOWARD WRIGHT" <dvsww2@mindspring.com>
> To: <mil-veh@mil-veh.org>; "Dave Ball" <vought@msn.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 3:33 PM
> Subject: RE: [MV] Reenactors have no right!!! unless they were there
>
>
> > Dave, as a veteran reenactor, I have to take exception to some of your
> > comments. Let me say that I am not a Veteran having only missed being
> > inducted as I could not pass the physical. I lost some close friends
over
> > there who didn't come back. My father was a WWII Vet who is now
deceased.
> > I can tell you this that I understand more of the sacrifices that my Dad
> > and his buddies, people on the homefront gave in order to give respect
for
> > those who fought to keep us free. I think you feel the terror and
concern
> > that our forefather's had when you see a whole street of Germans armed
and
> > coming after you, Most WWII vets that I've met were quite happy with
our
> > impressions and are just plain amazed why we would spend the time
> gathering
> > up field gear from dusty garages and basements to do it authentically
and
> > correct. I think the tale of the tape is when they want their picture
> taken
> > with them and their families, or will bring their grandchildren or great
> > grand children to see a display. We collect MV's also and although we
> don't
> > strive for a 100% show car appearance as ours are used and used hard in
> the
> > field. My 45 GPW has been converted to 12 volts and is a good runner
with
> a
> > CJ engine. We are still an MV collector and deserve some respect within
> > the hobby. In the past we've had some MV owners try reenacting and
enjoy
> > it. One guy with a Halftrack had a ball hauling troops and fording a
> > creek. He said it was more fun than being in a parade. I hope I can
> > continue to reenact WWII so the Veterans like my Dad won't be forgotten.
> > The schools sure won't teach it, Will You? Respectfully, Howard Wright,
> > 325th GIR 82nd AB, TSG I.O.N. Chapter, IMPVA
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: Dave Ball <vought@msn.com>
> > > To: <mil-veh@mil-veh.org>
> > > Date: 10/10/02 1:42:48 PM
> > > Subject: [MV] Reenactors have no right!!! unless they were there
> > >
> > > I have been lurking and reading here is my two cents. first you should
> > know
> > > I missed Vietnam by a few years but watched it all through my High
> school
> > > years and through the eyes of a brother John who is a Marine (who
> > sometimes
> > > lurks on this list) John is a half brother procured from my Dads early
> > days
> > > in England you see my Dad was a WW2 Navigator in the 8th AAF and flew
72
> > > missions in 44-45 France and Germany aboard the flying gas tanks
called
> > > Liberators (B24).
> > > I collect and display Military Vehicles I do not wear Military
Clothing
> or
> > > Insignia I am not entitled to. I display the vehicles because as tools
> of
> > > war they have historical value.
> > > Uniforms have the same value but to me it is best served when seen on
a
> > > mannequin.
> > > Both my Dad and Brother have a hard time telling stories because
usually
> > the
> > > outcome is people getting killed. I have heard them tell each other
the
> > > horrors of there wars and seen the looks in there eyes and I know I
am
> > > missing a large part of the story the part they feel in there guts the
> > tears
> > > flow easy with these two men and they are as tough as any man I ever
> met.
> > > My Father Came to a military Collectors club meet about twenty years
ago
> > and
> > > saw people wearing "costumes" and he was not happy about it especially
> the
> > > Axis gear
> > > he has never returned and has not spoken about it other than to tell
me
> > > this.
> > > Everyday he put his uniform on and pulled his boots on he felt sick to
> his
> > > stomach the ride to the plane was a tough one after the engines were
> > running
> > > and he was busy he would get lost in his job once over the target the
> sick
> > > felling would return when he felt the plane lurch as the bombs left he
> new
> > > people were dying on the ground and he was sick as were his friends
all
> > the
> > > way home even while evading flak and what little fighters were left.
> > > When he came home in 46 he took his bags and put them in the attic and
> he
> > > never looked at his uniforms again and he started drinking heavily and
> did
> > > so for twenty five years.
> > > My Dad also had heartbreak at an 8th AAF reunion in France he felt
very
> > hurt
> > > at the sight of the French parading around in GI Gear especially
flyers
> > > gear he will never return to Europe he told me some of the French had
on
> > > repro flyers jackets with plane names from his group that had gone
down
> > over
> > > Germany with all on board lost many of his friend felt it was a
dishonor
> > to
> > > those brave souls and there families that they would wear the jackets
> > > without the knowledge of what the insignia represented to those very
men
> > > watching them do so when asked many French had no Idea what unit or
the
> > > outcome of the plane crew who's nose art and names were on theses
> jackets.
> > > By Brothers stories are much more horrifying he was wounded badly lost
a
> > > limb and came home to a country who would rather spit on him than help
> him
> > > recover.
> > > He took off his uniform and threw them away he was ashamed to be near
> them
> > > he has gone through more pain than any man deserves but he has
survived.
> > > John has healed and owns a M151 although he only uses it in Parades he
> > still
> > > will not wear any part of a uniform he proudly fly's the American Flag
> > that
> > > of the USMC and the MIA/POW flag on his MUTT.
> > > As kids we play with GI Joes (I have watched my son) as we grow up we
> > forget
> > > that what the uniform represents is our armed services and is designed
> to
> > > tell them apart on the battlefield.
> > > Reenacting is nothing more than grown ups playing GI Joe it serves no
> > > purpose other than to remind of us of horrible mistakes and
> disagreements
> > > that went sour and needed to be solved by taking life.
> > > I have been to a few reenactments they do not entertain me but make me
> > think
> > > about my Dad and my Brother and all the other young men thrust into
the
> > > situation of taking life or losing there's it usually brings tears for
> me
> > it
> > > is not fun much like visiting the USS Arizona .
> > > Playing war is nothing more than a Childs game it serves no man but to
> > make
> > > him remember the past and the hell that plagues his memory this in
> itself
> > is
> > > wrong most reenactors do not know of War only of the game of playing
> > > Soldier.
> > > Next time you throw on that Uniform and jump in your truck think about
> the
> > > thoughts going through the peoples heads watching you drive by
> especially
> > > those men and women who you are portraying does it do them justice are
> you
> > > entitled to wear the uniform or are you a child in a soldiers clothes.
> > >
> > > Dave Ball
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Henry J. Fackovec" <hfackovec@easternems.com>
> > > To: "Military Vehicles Mailing List" <mil-veh@mil-veh.org>
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 4:44 AM
> > > Subject: [MV] FW: [MV] Military Only Zone-Response (copy of attack
from
> > > Andrew Lawrence)
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Nichelle m Lawrence [mailto:aplreenactor@juno.com]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:07 AM
> > > > To: hfackovec@easternems.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [MV] Military Only Zone-Response
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Henry,
> > > >
> > > > It seems that you have pleaded an interesting case here about your
> > > > problem with reenacting and our, as put it, "playing dress up" This
> > > > statement you make is really out of line and makes you look like an
> > > > idiot. Let me ask you a question, if I may. Are you a veteran? No, I
> am
> > > > not. My father served in the 4th Battalion, 503rd Infantry, Company
B,
> > > > of the 173rd Airborne. He spent two tours voluntarily and found it
to
> be
> > > > scarier than hell and equally as fun. He made friends and lost
> friends.
> > > > He saved lives and he took lives. He is proud of what he did and
what
> he
> > > > was. A veteran and a hero in his families eyes. He feels that
> reenactors
> > > > and the idea behind the hobby are wonderful. Now, while your father
> was
> > > > pushing papers in the office during his stint, was he thinking about
> the
> > > > time when people would be proud of him for the work he did to help
win
> > > > the United States our freedom, or did he take the protestors shit
and
> > > > try to hide his emotions?
> > > > I have been a Civil War reenactor for 15 years and a World
War
> > > > II reenactor for 5 years. I am also a public school teacher. I find
> that
> > > > the hands on approach to learning is the only way to truly know what
> it
> > > > is you are interested in or desire to learn. Reenacting is the way I
> > > > know what a soldier from the 1860's or 1940's feels like and what it
> was
> > > > like to be them. I love American history and I learn it all types of
> > > > ways and reenacting is the best way I know how.
> > > > And please, from now on leave your petty nonsense at home.
> Thank
> > > > you for your time and huzzah for reenactors!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Y.M.O.S.
> > > > Andrew P. Lawrence
> > > > 84th Infantry Division
> > > > Berdan Sharpshooters, 1st U.S.S.S., Company D
> > > > 7th & 30th Volunteer Infantry, Missouri Irish Brigade
> > > > 2nd Wisconsin, Company C, Iron Brigade
> > > > 44th New York Volunteer Infantry, Company A
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 8 Oct 2002 11:04:31 -0400 "Henry J. Fackovec"
> > > > <hfackovec@easternems.com> writes:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Tim Scherrer [mailto:soldierboy440@yahoo.com]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 10:36 AM
> > > > > To: hfackovec@easternems.com
> > > > > Cc: john cullifer; Allan Ensor; Heath Hensley; Andrew Lawrence;
> > > > > Allen
> > > > > Linquist; Matt; Charlie Palek; Randall Palmer
> > > > > Subject: RE: [MV] Military Only Zone-Response
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > First off, we dress in period clothing, not current US
> > > > > army clothing, so there is no legal issue of
> > > > > impersonating anything. As for taking up acting....I
> > > > > already have---reenacting. That is my hobby since
> > > > > 1983.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think M series vehicles are just as historic and collectable as
> WWII
> > > >
> > > > > vehicles but they don't belong at a WWII only event. Your
> arguements
> > > > > and problem with this event is sorta like me taking my GPW to a
> Civil
> > > > > War event and wondering my people think it isn't
> > > > > correct.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not sure what your problem is, but I really doubt
> > > > > it involves me and my WWII only event..other than
> > > > > being a target of your anger. If you don't like my event..then
stay
> > > > > home but also remember others may appreciate it for what it is. I
> > > > > don't comment or go to your events just to rock the slurpee
> > > > > machine...so I ask you not do it with mine.
> > > > >
> > > > > Tim
> > > > >
> > > > > --- "Henry J. Fackovec" <hfackovec@easternems.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Hmmmmmm....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A person who likes to dress up in military clothing
> > > > > > that was (AND THIS
> > > > > > IS AN ASSUMPTION) not authorized, (earned or however
> > > > > > the law would put
> > > > > > it) to wear. If I recall this is not allowed under
> > > > > > the MVPA rules, nor
> > > > > > under the Federal Code. (One of the reasons that the
> > > > > > NH club refuses to
> > > > > > join with the national, is we have certain
> > > > > > individuals that insist that
> > > > > > playing dress up is a god given right.).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you like this sort of thing, perhaps you should
> > > > > > consider taking up
> > > > > > acting.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Additionally, while you will argue that this living
> > > > > > history stuff is "
> > > > > > Keeping their memories alive" I would counter that
> > > > > > many veterans (My
> > > > > > father included), do not really need to be reminded
> > > > > > of a period of the
> > > > > > worlds history that was rife with mans inhumanity to
> > > > > > man. Disruption of
> > > > > > millions of lives, families loosing sons, daughters, etc...In my
> > > > > > fathers words, " We fought and many died, so you would not
> > > > > > have to wear that
> > > > > > uniform...")
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I stand by my position that WWII vehicles are not
> > > > > > nearly as historic as
> > > > > > M series and should be collected, melted and made
> > > > > > into wheel chocks for
> > > > > > real vehicles. (Assuming the quality of the steel is
> > > > > > high enough. <G>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hankie, ducking and hiding behind Ronzo this time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Military Vehicles Mailing List
[mailto:mil-veh@mil-veh.org]
> > > > > On
> > > > > > Behalf Of Tim Scherrer
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 12:12 AM
> > > > > > To: Military Vehicles Mailing List
> > > > > > Subject: [MV] Military Only Zone-Response
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, I was the guy who sent out the email saying
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > event had to WWII vehicles and the people dressed in
> > > > > > WWII clothing, so the target is here if you want to
> > > > > > take a swing at me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The thing of it is, the existing WWII vehicle convoy
> > > > > > done in the midwest did not directly invite nor
> > > > > > involve MVPA folks because it was intended as a
> > > > > > reenactment rather than a pure MV event..and they
> > > > > > didn't want to deal with non-WWII vehicles "farbing
> > > > > > up" the event, or deal with MVers showing up in
> > > > > > their
> > > > > > jungle fatigues and Grizzly Adams beards trying to
> > > > > > pass for WWII. They just avoided the issue by
> > > > > > excluding everyone but a select few reenactors.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My thoughts were...why not try and get more MVPA participation
by
> > > > >
> > > > > > opening it up and giving them opportunities to bring WWII
> > > > > vehicles.
> > > > > > You scratch our
> > > > > > back and we scratch yours. A win-win for everyone
> > > > > > who
> > > > > > can play..right?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, I'm sorry if you are somehow offended that
> > > > > > your
> > > > > > M35 Duece or M151 can't play, but it doesn't fit the
> > > > > > intent of the event. I am trying to bridge the gap
> > > > > > between Reenactors and MV collectors in some
> > > > > > reasonable manner. If you are also offended by the
> > > > > > WWII clothing requirement (and my standards I listed
> > > > > > are much looser than any respectable WWII
> > > > > > reenactment), then you just don't get what I am
> > > > > > trying
> > > > > > to do here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is likely why these types of events haven't
> > > > > > occurred. I am not out to make this the 1,000
> > > > > > vehicle
> > > > > > march. I am just trying to connect up reenactors
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > MVers together to have some fun and do some
> > > > > > interesting stuff. If you want to play but don't
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > a WWII vehicle, talk to a friend who does and get
> > > > > > your impression
> > > > > > together.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If for some reason this whole concept infuriates
> > > > > > you,
> > > > > > well then this event is not for you and ignore the
> > > > > > email. I am putting a lot of work into trying
> > > > > > something new..and of course those who try new
> > > > > > things
> > > > > > always are criticized. Go put something else
> > > > > > together
> > > > > > if you are so inflamed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tim Scherrer
> > > > > > Co, 84th ID, Reenacted
> > > > > > WWIIHRS, MVPA
> > > > > > Coordinator of Columbia, MO Convoy
> > > > > >
> > > > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > > > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
> > > > > > http://faith.yahoo.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ===Mil-Veh is a member-supported mailing list===
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, send e-mail to:
> > > > > > <mil-veh-off@mil-veh.org>
> > > > > > To switch to the DIGEST mode, send e-mail to
> > > > > > <mil-veh-digest@mil-veh.org> To reach a human, contact
> > > > > > <ack@mil-veh.org>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
> > > > > http://faith.yahoo.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________________________________________
> > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> > > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> > > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> > > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ===Mil-Veh is a member-supported mailing list===
> > > > To unsubscribe, send e-mail to: <mil-veh-off@mil-veh.org>
> > > > To switch to the DIGEST mode, send e-mail to
> > <mil-veh-digest@mil-veh.org>
> > > > To reach a human, contact <ack@mil-veh.org>
> > > >
> > >
> > > ===Mil-Veh is a member-supported mailing list===
> > > To unsubscribe, send e-mail to: <mil-veh-off@mil-veh.org>
> > > To switch to the DIGEST mode, send e-mail to
> <mil-veh-digest@mil-veh.org>
> > > To reach a human, contact <ack@mil-veh.org>
> >
> >
> > --- HOWARD WRIGHT
> > --- dvsww2@mindspring.com
> > --- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
> >
>
> ===Mil-Veh is a member-supported mailing list===
> To unsubscribe, send e-mail to: <mil-veh-off@mil-veh.org>
> To switch to the DIGEST mode, send e-mail to <mil-veh-digest@mil-veh.org>
> To reach a human, contact <ack@mil-veh.org>
>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Wed Apr 23 2003 - 13:24:07 PDT